The Plight Of The Purebred

[Dogster]

//"So, dogs would evolve back to wild, dingo-like creatures????'//

that's what the experts say, and someone has studied dogs released into the wild, and in warmer climates,the dogs all evolved back into a dingo type of dog again.
Yeah, the dog DNA and the wolf DNA is not the same.



but yeah, you are right, climate would be a factor...
no idea how one could release dogs into the artic to see what type of dog that would be, cuz no way to introduce that climate "slowly enough" to allow the dogs to evolve before they froze to death...
...but if one could do that, introduce a cold climate to dogs who are NOT being bred by humans, who knows, maybe those dogs might be much like a malamute? who knows...

I think some dogs would be able to survive, but some, like a bulldog, for example, have trouble breathing, so they would stand no chance against a predator.... or tiny dogs, like a chiuaua. Whippets,for example, would definately freeze to death....

 

[Dogster]

Oh yes, I'll watch it!!!!
<----- finding some popcorn right now

Have been meaning to watch this video for months now....

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I think some dogs would be able to survive, but some, like a bulldog, for example, have trouble breathing, so they would stand no chance against a predator.... or tiny dogs, like a chiuaua. Whippets,for example, would definately freeze to death...."//

certainly, some dogs would survive "as is" out in the wild, but, even those breeds future litters would probably evolve a bit due to the change in their prey, diet, lifestyle, etc.
the info i read, indicated, that dogs like bulldogs and chihuahuas would disappear in each successsive generation,
and the dogs evolve, and the overall packs of dogs would end up as a dingo-like type of dog, but, this was in a warmer climate. I will try to track down any actual credible research done on this, it may all be only anecdotal reporting.

 

[tigerlily46514]

<----like, my dog's very bright colored coat would not serve him well in a forest...if one set a bunch of Buddies out into the wild, i'd bet those bright black and white markings would disappear in each successive generation...

 

[Anneke]

//"Tigerlily, something I would like to see in confirmation shows is that they start testing for the functionality of the dog, not just the looks."//

well, a talent competition would be nice, for dog beauty pageants,
but some talents would be hard to put on a stage, like bird dogs or hunting dogs...

Trying to picture this on a stage....

Anyway, I said that, because most breeders I know, have a couple of dogs and do nothing else than go to shows. These dogs hardly know to sit on command, because their owners don't want them to sit down in the ring. They are supposed to stand before the judge. All the training they get is how to run nicely besides the person showing them and how to stand.

I can't wrap my head around that. You decide to get a specific breed and then you don't use the dogs ability.
I mean, I chose the aussie for a reason. It's capability for working(and yes, for it's looks). Weather that is herding cattle or doing agility. It is a dog made to work for and with it's owner.
Don't get me wrong, I love my friend, but she does nothing with her dogs. They had their basic obedience, but Brit, the one that had the litter, had almost no training untill she got her points for breeding. You have to have a certain amount of points before you are allowed to breed under the Golden Retriever Club regulations.
Goldens are such trainable dogs! Why get one, if you are not going to enjoy working with a it? I have had this discussion with her over and over. She has 4 dogs and did a lot of training with her first dog(Donja). Dogdance, obedience, agility. But as soon as she decided she wanted to be a breeder and she got Brit, she stopped doing all that.
When I asked her why, she said that other breeders told her that if she trained obedience with her showdog, she would not perform as well in shows.

Fortunately there are breeders that don't believe this and do have a lot of fun with their dogs, besides going to shows.

I have been thinking of taking Jinx to a small australian shepherd show. Just to see what a judge thinks of her. But I don't think I will ever get there I just don't see myself prancing around in a ring. And getting a piece of paper saying: lovely bitch, nice shaped head, good proportions, too much white.
I know all this, I don't need a judge to tell me this.
What I find more important is the fact that she is willing to work, eager to please, that she has a great personality. Those are qualities I would like to pass on, IF I were ever going to breed her(which I'm not)
Yes she should be up to breedstandard, but I also think that the dogs ability to work should be considered in breeding.

There are so many differences between (what is called) working lines and showlines.
Showlines have a lot more hair and, how do I say this right, are less willing to work? No, have less drive, that's how I wanted to say it.
Sure there are a lot of best of breed aussies out there that have their working stock dog titles or agility titles. But overall showlines do have less drive.
So if I have an aussie that has a great character and is a fantastic worker, but he/she is the wrong color or his ears stand up(is considered a flaw) then he/she can not be a good representative for his breed??
Then why is the aussie that has too much coat and that might have a lot less drive considered "the best of it's breed"?

I guess I'll never get that. I do understand someone wanting to have the best dog, but I just don't think it's all about the looks. Or what some judge thinks, should be the looks.

What I meant with educating judgeg beter... I have seen showreports where it said: eyes could be a bit darker... so the dog got a lower score.
That is a personal opinion. The breedstandard for aussies states:

​

Eyes​

are brown, blue, amber or any variation or combination thereof, including flecks and marbling.​

So if my dog has blue eyes and the judge says the eyes could be a bit darker...Hey, the standard doesn't say which shade of blue!!!!
Or if the judge likes red merles, so he sends out all the tri-colored dogs, even if they are better looking than the red merle.
I truely dispise that.

Sigh, oh well, I could go on and on...

I'm going to cuddle my perfect aussies and go to bed.
They are perfect to me, so the h*** with stupid judges

 

[sara]

Holy crap you all went nuts here!!!

I wanted to state a couple of things I had thoughts about while reading through 6 pages! LOL

The AKC and the CKC have NOTHING to do with breed standards. It's the BREED CLUBS that set all standards. The KC in Great Britain is, IMO a WAY better set up. They control the standards and breeding practices. They will no longer register ANY PUPPY FROM MERLE TO MERLE matings, they will not register more than 3 litters (I think it's 3) per a Bitch's lifetime. And there are many other restrictions. They are doing what they can to make dogs healthier... unfortunately, Canada and the US are NOT. and they SHOULD BE. They should be following examples set in Europe, they should be banning painful practices like ear cropping. They SHOULD be doing their parts to keep breeds healthy and happy, even if it means outcrossing, like they have proven works with breeding Dalmatians to Pointers to get rid of their stone issues. Not like you can even tell after a couple of generations.

Just look at the Bob-tailed Boxers! They got KC approval to breed a corgi into boxers to get a naturally short tail (due to banning docking). Now I know this is an example of breeding for looks, but they are back into the show ring after 18 generations... with some short tails A pointer is not that different than a Dal, and it only takes a couple of generations to get a HEALTHY Dalmatian... However the Dalmatian Club of America (and I'm assuming the Canadian one as well) wont work on this with breeders willing to try, so the only way you can get one of these dogs, is to go to a breeder who doesn't register their dogs . If the KC will allow it for cosmetic reasons, why is this not being allowed for HEALTH reasons by any major kennel club??? (by the way, I HATE the Dalmatian Club of America, between their mandatory culling of deaf puppies and the stone thing, they can just go jump in a lake!!!)

As to me hearing about the culling of double merles, obviously I know way more about this than I ever wanted to . It's why I got into rescuing deaf dogs to begin with. After I adopted Scout and began learning about deafies, and their plight, I decided to try to make a difference. Between me rescuing them, Training them, and doing demonstrations at events, Talking about them on Forums, putting videos up on You Tube, and showing off my dogs to any one who asks about them, we've changed perceptions, and will continue to do so.

 

[Dogster]

Whoops
From now we'll say BREED CLUBS.

 

[Dogster]

As to me healing about the culling of double merles, obviously I know way more about this than I ever wanted to . It's why I got into rescuing deaf dogs to begin with. After I adopted Scout and began learning about deafies, and their plight, I decided to try to make a difference. Between me rescuing them, Training them, and doing demonstrations at events, Talking about them on Forums, putting videos up on You Tube, and showing off my dogs to any one who asks about them, we've changed perceptions, and will continue to do so.

And you said you're not AWESOME!!!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Anneke, i so understand and share your feeling baffled at people,
whether they are breeders---- or------ just the typical dog owner,
who do not do much with their dogs.

what a loss, both to the human and to the dog. I don't get it either. Yet, my guess is, the average dog owner gives their dog a few outings per month, trains a few tricks or cues during the dog's entire lifetime,
and otherwise, the dog has days and years and years, which involve being fed, petted, and mayyybe a walk, and maybe a tuggie toy session a few times a week.

sadly, *my* impression is, that IS the life of many average dogs. I could be wrong.

i could be wrong, but, on other dog forums, and the average ppl i know from my neighborhood, circle of pals, coworkers, etc, that is their dog's lives.
seems a loss. Like you say, they are missing out on so much from their dog, and the dog is missing out on a chance for a fuller life...


Anneke, you might be right about showlines are less lively than working lines. It might be worth speculating how much impact the dogs life has on the dogs energy level, year after year after year....who knows?
If one does not provide a dog with much exercise and stimulation, i think that some dogs become dull and less lively after years of this type of life... I think this can happen.
I think we can, to some extent, help our dogs be livlier dogs. I have known a handful of dogs, who seemed less lively, til their life was changed either by tricks training, owner joining agility, or whatever.
THEN, the dog became a perkier, livelier, more focused dog.

On the other hand, if that exact same dog,
is given to some farmer, who trains dog to herd sheep,
and that exact same dog spends the bulk of his days, like 8 hours per day, outdoors keeping an eye on a herd of sheep,
ppl will point at that dog, and say, "Wow, that dog has drive!"
but the same dog, if he spends 10 hours a day under his mom's kitchen table, and the occasional outing to a show ring,
no one would say that about the dog, they might point at the listless dog and say, "See? a showdog, with not much drive.."

it is worth mulling over, anyway....who knows.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Great post Sara!

//"It's the BREED CLUBS that set all standards."//

Yes, here we are on page 9 of this thread,
and ^ this has been said multiple times. That point is always made when anyone complains about AKC standards, sooner or later, by someone, "But, but, the AKC gets their ideas for standards from breed clubs."

The breed clubs DO indeed put forth suggestions for the standards,
yet,
the standards do NOT go into effect, until the AKC approves them.

The final decision, is still down to the AKC. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even a trained vet<---------which the AKC could easily consult-------to look over some of the increasingly extreme recent changes made to many breeds over the past decades,
and say, "no, THAT is too extreme, that will not be passed."
Even teenager members of DTA can look at many of the recent extremes (in past 30 to 50 years)
and even these teenagers recognize, "that change is too extreme, and not in best interest of the dog's function, health, or general life."
and they are just kids<---Not even trained vets.

My kids could ask me for permission to play on the roof. If i had said yes, and they fell off the roof, i can't point at them and say, "but, it was THEIR idea". When you are in charge, like the AKC is, you have to take responsibility for your decisions.
Imo, it's sort of like the AKC can not approve the breed clubs suggestions that this dog has a snout so short it can't breathe-------------- and then not take responsibility for approving it, and passing it, and putting that new standard into effect.


the akc ignored the border collie breed clubs pleas to not recognize the BC into the show ring, btw.

 

[sara]

Well, the club is different from the Border collie club that was fighting inclusion, as far as I could tell. from a few seconds on google

 

[charmedwolf]

Wow, you guys took this one and ran with it!!

I feel the need to share a story with you that happened as I was training a new co-worker. We were talking about how we got into dogs and what he was used to working with. Turns out he was a PETA supporter ( I don't know if he still is) and he was introduced to "saving" dogs for them. My response was that I had been in dogs my whole life as my aunt, grandma and many family friends have shown and breed dogs. I was called a Breed Snob!!! All because I was born into a family of dog showers. I don't think I've ever gotten so angry so quickly!! I had to explain that 4 of them were the only ones I had from "breeders", two of them I had bred myself!! The rest either showed up, were abandoned, or rescued. (3 of which came from the last 5 days but that's another story!) Can't please every one that's for certain!!

Quite honestly, I extremely happy with the breeding practises I've been raised with. I was taught never to breed unless that dog could do the work intended, never to breed if any health problems showed up, always check the blood lines before even thinking about it and always always be willing to take back a puppy no questions asked.

I think AKC shouldn't even offer papers to any litters that come out of parents that haven't had health tests. I don't think that dogs should be able to get conformation titles without getting a sport title first.

Anneke- Really? I knew little colored Golden were the "thing" a couple of years ago but geez! Maybe you need to print out the standard and highlight the sentence that says" Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable." and give it to them.

Tigerlily- The German Shepherd standard hasn't been changed since 1994!! and it even says "Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short." Translation- The shoulders should be easy to see but then slope into a level back that doesn't sag downward or roach up. Some of the pictures of the dog's back look really bad when they are in the stupid stack that they have but their backs are straight when a natural stack (like the rest of the breeds). Others just look bad either way you put them.

I wanted to add something else but I forgot sooo yea...

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I think AKC shouldn't even offer papers to any litters that come out of parents that haven't had health tests.'//

I heartily second that, very much. Even if we could get the AKC to stop doling out registrations to puppy mills, would be a great start!!
I am sorry some person made you feel defensive about being into showrings, or breeding. It's your choice completely, and no doubt, amongst the showring types and breeders, there ARE people who do focus on providing great lives for their dogs, asking all clients to spay/neuter the dogs to avoid adding more dogs to an population crisis, and who DO value a dog for more than it's appearance, papers, title, etc.
I have yet to meet any breeder who does not think what they are doing is fine, but, in your case, it probably is fine. I bet you ARE into dog training and providing a great life for your dogs. I know of all the dogs on DTA, i'd bet yours are fed the best raw food diet !!

//"Tigerlily- The German Shepherd standard hasn't been changed since 1994!! "//
I will take your word on it, that that is the most recent change for GSD hipline....

"Standards" are arbitrary, and sometimes nothing more than fads or whims. Some standards are flat out dangerous. That period of time when the AKC demanded the extreme slope, still influences some dogs even to this day, we can STILL see these ruined dogs today,
and there are STILL ppl who brag on how sloped their GSD's hip are..


We were discussing the extreme slopes the AKC standards demanded during this time period:

 

[tigerlily46514]

Maybe Anneke was right,
maybe we DO need to get better educated judges after all?
http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html

 

[tigerlily46514]

nah, maybe it IS the standard, after all,
from the GSD club page:
http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/Illo6.htm

that looks pretty slopey to me, but what do i know.


The prize winning GSD of 1959

"1959 American Show Grand Victor: A BIG, beautiful dog, straight-backed, with normal hock angulation."

The prize winning GSD of 2003.....

"Todays standards give us nothing more than a Roach: Notice the low-slung hips with extreme hind angulation, chest hangs below elbows and a much smaller dog as well."
http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html
i do not think the AKC or the showrings always have a dogs FUNCTION
HEALTH
OR
general LIFE as it's top interest...

 

[tigerlily46514]

dawg, what a bummer, i've been misinformed, i had read somewhere, that the akc "standard" for the GSD hip had removed the extreme slope, but i now think i have been misinformed....

here is the link, from the AKC website, led me to this page:
http://www.gsdca.org/german-shepherd-dogs/education

and the ideal dog pictured for a standard, show this dog :

"Todays standards give us nothing more than a Roach: Notice the low-slung hips with extreme hind angulation, chest hangs below elbows and a much smaller dog as well."

 

[bekah1001]

I always kind of cringe when I see pictures of a GS with hips that low to the ground. It looks like it would be painful to walk. The dog almost looks like it is half paralysed .

 

[tigerlily46514]

many of these dogs do end up half paralyzed.... the AKC beauty pageants are not about a dog's function, health, or general life.

 

[tigerlily46514]

but again, it's NOT just the GSD, or the bulldog, or the pekingese, or the dachsund, or any of the breeds we've mentioned, it's MANY
MANY
BREEDS
are falling apart today, as result of recent changes towards extremism,
and little focus on function,
health
and the dog's general life.

(recent, like i've pointed out many times, refers to past 30 to 50 years, compared to some of these breeds being 100s to 1000s of years old, which makes 30 years ago "recent" to the timeline of the breed being on earth, see? ------when compared to the centuries of some breeds looking entirely different for eons prior to breeders and the AKC screwing around with dogs "recently")

 

[charmedwolf]

I believe it was the UKC you could be thinking about. The standard for them was last updated in 2009. And I agree, those backs are about as straight as a broken ruler!

I personally don't think the GSD will ever recover from these hips and back extremes. The different "styles" are waaaayyy to far from each other that I think they might do more harm than good if they were to try and breed the lines together and that's if the breeders even agreed with each other.

And now, I remember what I wanted to say. I wondered if a petition to make health testing mandatory if the akc or ukc would start to listen up more.