tigerlily46514
Honored Member
wow, those GRs are pretty, btw, i can still tell they are GRs, too, i wondered if i would recognize a white GR if i saw one. I guess they are more cream than white, now that i see one.
The Plight Of The Purebred
- Thread starter tigerlily46514
- Start date
I LOVE those copper-colored goldens, but they barley exist!!!!!
Evie
Experienced Member
I knowIt makes me sooo angry. Those people say they love their breed so much, but what they are doing, is distroying the breed. Like with the german shepherds, bulldogs, cavaliers.
Less severe example, but I think it is relevant: My friend has Golden Retrievers. And they are white. Not the beautifull rich golden brown, no, they are creamy white.
As she wanted to breed her second bitch, she had to do some confirmationshows. One day I went to see her in the ring and brought another friend, who doesn't know much about goldens. So she asked why these goldens were called golden, because all the dogs in the ring were white. So I explained that white is actually not an autenthic color, but because people like it, it is the new golden. Over here you only see white goldens in the confirmation ring. The brown ones are "working" dogs, bred by people who use the dogs for what they were made to do: hunting and retrieving.
This lady, turned out she was a breeder, overheard my explanation, turned around and was quite mad at me. She said white WAS an original color accepted by breedstandards.
I know the breedstandard says any shade of cream and gold, but there are no golden dogs in the showrings anymore. If you want your dog to win, you need it to be very lightcolored, or the judge will just send you out with a low score.
Fortunately, a few titles have been revoked, due to healthproblems. A few years ago I saw a german shepherd win best of breed. He could hardly stand on his feet, had no strenght in his backhand, he stood like he was going to fall over any second. His back was so sloped, I felt sorry for this dog. It is suppesed to be a powerfull breed, but this dog did NOT represent that.
All that , because of a few judges that think a sloped back is beautifull, and breeders just want to win
I HATE the look of the white Golden Retrievers. I LOVE the golden ones and am always upset at the amount of white GOLDEN retrievers around..
I saw what I thought was the most beautiful golden retriever i'd ever seen... only to find out that it was a first cross between a golden retriever and a poodle (groodle)
Adrianna & Calvin
Experienced Member
Re: Crufts:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4199/23/5/3
Apparently the best of breed in a few categories was tossed out. Here's an interview from crufts (that is not the bulldog that was tossed, I think that one was a male):
http://www.thedogpress.com/ShowShots/Healthy-Dogs_Carpenter-123.asp
Don't get me started about pedigreed dogs and congenital/inherited defects. Dalmatians and their excruciating urate stones (the AKC begrudgingly accepting 'low urate' dogs now), brachycephalic dogs trying to breathe (here's a supposedly "funny" video of a pug trying to sleep but having too much trouble breathing, feel free to leave comments), double merle dogs and the associated problems. About Westminster ... apparently the best in breed Rough Collie has a double merle sire, can you believe it? Of course you know I promote the adoption of these dogs, like Calvin, but to purposely breed them -- aargh. There is a great blog with info on this: "The Blind Collies of Westminster."
BTW, the Dalmatian club of America advocates euthanasia of deaf dogs on its website, and the lovely Australian Shepherd Club says, regarding merle-merle breeding:
The best way is for you, the breeder, to cull those white-factored puppies at birth, and then to forget them and enjoy your healthy, sound litter. Another option is to simply do a solid to merle breeding, and eliminate the possibility of the homozygous merle.
You can purposefully breed them, then just kill 'em, forget 'em, and enjoy the normal ones you have left. There are some other great quotes from them, such as:
However, if your bitch is merle, you must make one decision. Are you prepared to cull the defective white puppies? If not, breed her to a solid dog.
In litters from merle to merle matings, a breeder will statistically average one defective, homozygous merle puppy out of four. This will vary from one to many defective puppies in any given litter. If you realize these puppies are going to be deaf or have eye defects, it is not too difficult to cull them at birth.
They go on to discourage breeders from waiting a few weeks to see if the puppies are truly "defective" because then they will be cute and fuzzy and harder to kill, and you might be tempted to (gasp) try to find them homes ... Also, you [the breeder] must consider that they will go out in public as a representative of the Aussie breed, looking all messed up and giving you and the breed a bad name (I'm paraphrasing). They also say that more often than not, the dog is run over by the family car, causing heartbreak to the family's children. ("Oh, but what about the CHILDREN???") Terrible, isn't it? If you just kill them after you've bred them, you can avoid all that heartache and just enjoy and sell the normal ones.
Terrific, right?
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4199/23/5/3
Apparently the best of breed in a few categories was tossed out. Here's an interview from crufts (that is not the bulldog that was tossed, I think that one was a male):
http://www.thedogpress.com/ShowShots/Healthy-Dogs_Carpenter-123.asp
Don't get me started about pedigreed dogs and congenital/inherited defects. Dalmatians and their excruciating urate stones (the AKC begrudgingly accepting 'low urate' dogs now), brachycephalic dogs trying to breathe (here's a supposedly "funny" video of a pug trying to sleep but having too much trouble breathing, feel free to leave comments), double merle dogs and the associated problems. About Westminster ... apparently the best in breed Rough Collie has a double merle sire, can you believe it? Of course you know I promote the adoption of these dogs, like Calvin, but to purposely breed them -- aargh. There is a great blog with info on this: "The Blind Collies of Westminster."
BTW, the Dalmatian club of America advocates euthanasia of deaf dogs on its website, and the lovely Australian Shepherd Club says, regarding merle-merle breeding:
The best way is for you, the breeder, to cull those white-factored puppies at birth, and then to forget them and enjoy your healthy, sound litter. Another option is to simply do a solid to merle breeding, and eliminate the possibility of the homozygous merle.
You can purposefully breed them, then just kill 'em, forget 'em, and enjoy the normal ones you have left. There are some other great quotes from them, such as:
However, if your bitch is merle, you must make one decision. Are you prepared to cull the defective white puppies? If not, breed her to a solid dog.
In litters from merle to merle matings, a breeder will statistically average one defective, homozygous merle puppy out of four. This will vary from one to many defective puppies in any given litter. If you realize these puppies are going to be deaf or have eye defects, it is not too difficult to cull them at birth.
They go on to discourage breeders from waiting a few weeks to see if the puppies are truly "defective" because then they will be cute and fuzzy and harder to kill, and you might be tempted to (gasp) try to find them homes ... Also, you [the breeder] must consider that they will go out in public as a representative of the Aussie breed, looking all messed up and giving you and the breed a bad name (I'm paraphrasing). They also say that more often than not, the dog is run over by the family car, causing heartbreak to the family's children. ("Oh, but what about the CHILDREN???") Terrible, isn't it? If you just kill them after you've bred them, you can avoid all that heartache and just enjoy and sell the normal ones.
Terrific, right?
southerngirl
Honored Member
Excuse me but that is screwed up!! How in the hell can you use the word cull like its no big deal its MURDER. I am very angry that they would have the guts to tell breeder to KILL INNOCENT puppies just because they aren't perfect. It's Ridiculous. Get them spayed or neutered find them a home not that hard. They talk about these puppies as if they are things instead of living breathing things. Just because they are not "Normal" does not mean they don't have every right to live. If these idiots knew what they were doing or cared about the dogs they would do background checks on their dogs and if they have known problems they should be spayed or neutered so they do not pass on these problems, than found a loving home.
Get them spayed or neutered find them a home not that hard. They talk about these puppies as if they are things instead of living breathing things. Just because they are not "Normal" does not mean they don't have every right to live. If these idiots knew what they were doing or cared about the dogs they would do background checks on their dogs and if they have known problems they should be spayed or neutered so they do not pass on these problems, than found a loving home.
Evie
Experienced Member
These puppies are just things to some people. They are a way of making money. If they are not perfect, then they can't make money and can give the breeder a bad reputation. Same thing happens in the horse racing industry (and probably with greyhounds too)...
People who don't foremost LOVE the animals shouldn't be allowed to breed them.
People who don't foremost LOVE the animals shouldn't be allowed to breed them.
Adrianna & Calvin
Experienced Member
It's worse than that, Southern Girl. The club is talking about people who purposefully breed two merle dogs to one another, knowing that doing so produces double merle dogs who will have visual problems and may be deaf. Having two copies of the merle gene results in this, so some breeders will breed two merles and then just get rid of the double merles and keep the rest. To be clear, the parents aren't deaf or visually impaired, it's two copies of the merle gene that causes it. If the parents were deaf, you might have a chance that the puppies wouldn't be. But since they are knowingly breeding two merles, they know they will get some disabled pups as a result. Like I said, I advocate for the adoption of these disabled dogs, like my own, but I think purposefully bringing them into the world is not ok. It is very hard to find good homes for them, most of the time they are killed or left outside to die, like Calvin was
bekah1001
Honored Member
Wow killing puppies because they are deaf!!! (Wait till Sara hears that)These people don't care about dogs at all they just treat them like they are an item or a fashion accessories, poor dogs who live in handbags, and show dogs with numerous health problems!!! I really hate people sometimes! Are people that stupid!!!!!???? Dogs are members of the family, and working dogs! Not something people can parade around!!!
Oh and about the white golden retrievers... From Riley's litter (she is not a registered GR) but she had "white" puppies. Huxley one of the pups, is a cream colour...is what I always called it. He is not pure white but has lots of gold in parts of his fur. I always thought that white GR were not the breed standard.
Another thing I wanted to mention. The video showed pictures of what the dogs used to look like (the pug, dashounds, and basset hounds). It is crazy of how much of a change the breeds went through and how the KC completely changed the standard.
Ps I attached a picture of Huxley...its really hard to see his fur, it was the only picture I had of him
Oh and about the white golden retrievers... From Riley's litter (she is not a registered GR) but she had "white" puppies. Huxley one of the pups, is a cream colour...is what I always called it. He is not pure white but has lots of gold in parts of his fur. I always thought that white GR were not the breed standard.
Another thing I wanted to mention. The video showed pictures of what the dogs used to look like (the pug, dashounds, and basset hounds). It is crazy of how much of a change the breeds went through and how the KC completely changed the standard.
Ps I attached a picture of Huxley...its really hard to see his fur, it was the only picture I had of him
Attachments
southerngirl
Honored Member
That is so wrong that they are breeding merle to merle I have heard about how it causes deafness and blindness(not that there is anything wrong with dogs that are deaf and blind but like you said they should not purposely breeding them is wrong.) Grr people can be so messed up these days I hate it.
Amateur
Experienced Member
I have a big problem with organized anything. How the kennel clubs can change the standards of working breeds to the detriment of the dogs is beyond me. Why we breed dogs so much bigger they can no longer do their "job" they were bred for in the first place, much less lead a healthy life now filled with other problems. And why these dog shows dont contain a measure of behaviour and temperament is beyond me. People suck, plain and simple.
Give me a mutt and hybrid vigor anyday.
Give me a mutt and hybrid vigor anyday.
tigerlily46514
Honored Member
//"I have a big problem with organized anything"//
oh, so do i!!
I AM DOING CARTWHEELS that ANY dog beauty show IS adding some health requirements, however basic and minimal, YAY AND YESssssss!!
however, the vet check in no way ensures the dog is not a carrier of the many rampant diseases and disorders so so common in so many breeds, but, it is a start anyway.
also, what a bummer, that of the almost 200(?) breeds, only 15 breeds will require a vet exam to compete in final rounds...what about the other 185 breeds? I wonder how in the world they chose THOSE 15 breeds? when so many breeds are becoming decimated by unscrupulous breeders...
It's almost impossible to find a KCSpaniel that is actually healthy.
Just horrific that there are ppl actually breeding merle to merle, and then killing off the deaf ones.......i'm just aghast...
I had always thought ppl did that out of ignorance, i had no idea ppl did that on purpose...WHAT!? ohmidawg.
LOVED BEKAH'S COMMENT, worth repeating:
//" . The video showed pictures of what the dogs used to look like (the pug, dashounds, and basset hounds). It is crazy of how much of a change the breeds went through and how the KC completely changed the standard. "//
this is so so true,
for so many breeds.
who knew...
oh, so do i!!
I AM DOING CARTWHEELS that ANY dog beauty show IS adding some health requirements, however basic and minimal, YAY AND YESssssss!!
however, the vet check in no way ensures the dog is not a carrier of the many rampant diseases and disorders so so common in so many breeds, but, it is a start anyway.
also, what a bummer, that of the almost 200(?) breeds, only 15 breeds will require a vet exam to compete in final rounds...what about the other 185 breeds? I wonder how in the world they chose THOSE 15 breeds? when so many breeds are becoming decimated by unscrupulous breeders...
It's almost impossible to find a KCSpaniel that is actually healthy.
Just horrific that there are ppl actually breeding merle to merle, and then killing off the deaf ones.......i'm just aghast...
I had always thought ppl did that out of ignorance, i had no idea ppl did that on purpose...WHAT!? ohmidawg. LOVED BEKAH'S COMMENT, worth repeating:
//" . The video showed pictures of what the dogs used to look like (the pug, dashounds, and basset hounds). It is crazy of how much of a change the breeds went through and how the KC completely changed the standard. "//
this is so so true,
for so many breeds.
who knew...
tigerlily46514
Honored Member
and lol to dogster, glad someone else found something sort of funny in the Onion link. btw, off topic, but, you would not believe how many times someone sends me some article from "The Onion" all up in arms about this topic or that topic,
unaware it is just a comedy satirical paper, not "real" news...some ppl actually believe the Onion.
unaware it is just a comedy satirical paper, not "real" news...some ppl actually believe the Onion.
GEORGE'SDAD
Well-Known Member
My dad and I used to breed, raise and train purebred Bluetick Coonhounds. We ALWAYS made sure the parents had very diverse family trees and that the dogs were bred based on their ability to track and hunt, not just on their looks. If that were the case, we would have hunting dogs that would trip over their ears whilst smelling a track and that would be very counter-productive to the breed's intended purpose. So my advice if you want a "purebred" dog...do your research on the breeder and make sure they are not inbreeding, or breeding with inbred dogs. This is one way to stop this practice...I honestly would not buy a dog for hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars and then turn around and spend tens of thousands over the dog's lifetime at the vet just because the dog is "pretty" or what the breed is "supposed" to look like. Not all dogs of the same breed are supposed to look the exact same. There are supposed to be differences in size, color, shape, etc...makes me sick!
tigerlily46514
Honored Member
AKC has no problem,
no problem at all,
giving out their registration papers to litters from mom/son or dad/daughter litters. The AKC makes millions of dollars each year, doling out these registration papers,
so some human can say, "My dog has papers".
GeorgeDad, it is good you at least tried to diversify the gene pool.
the gene pool is just too condensed in so many litters, in so many breeds. Most breeders do breed for LOOKS--- not ability,
not function,
not health.
The vast bulk of breeders are not the topshelf type of breeders who are doing actual research to improve the breed, but most are backyard breeders,---80% of AKC registrations come from backyard breeders, in it for profit, zero health testing or research involved at all,
and some BYB are even puppy mills, cranking out as many litters as they can, for profit, and don't much care about the lives the bitches and stud dogs are living.....so long as they can sell those puppies.
If a dog HAS papers, humans will pay top dollar for the PAPERS, when exact same dog is being put down in their local dog pound.
but the dog being put down, has somehow, lost his "papers". Too too many humans put too much store by a dog's papers, imo.
A dog having papers says nothing about a dog's health, function or ability or potential. All the papers prove, is,
there's a real good chance this dog is from a smaller than natural gene pool.
and most breeders seem oblivious to the dog overpopulation crisis,
of the million of dogs being put down every single year,
of how one (1) dog can add hundreds of more dogs to the area in only a few generations,
and in only a few years, 1,000s of more dogs!!
It just increases exponentially from there, and it IS out of control in USA, as well as many other countries.
and most breeders seem unaware how one has to research a purebreds entire family tree for disorders and diseases prior to mating,(less than 10% of breeders do this) A dog can be healthy, yet, be a carrier of one of the increasingly rampant disorders ruining so many breeds.
as well as have properly vetted humans and homes already lined up, prior to mating up dogs...humans who sign papers agreeing they will neuter/spay the dogs they get, and if dog does not work out, the breeder should agree to take back ANY dog they've produced,
for ANY reason, to avoid having the dog end up in the local dog pounds,
like one dog out of each litter does. (stats wise)
no problem at all,
giving out their registration papers to litters from mom/son or dad/daughter litters.
The AKC makes millions of dollars each year, doling out these registration papers, so some human can say, "My dog has papers".GeorgeDad, it is good you at least tried to diversify the gene pool.
the gene pool is just too condensed in so many litters, in so many breeds. Most breeders do breed for LOOKS--- not ability,
not function,
not health.
The vast bulk of breeders are not the topshelf type of breeders who are doing actual research to improve the breed, but most are backyard breeders,---80% of AKC registrations come from backyard breeders, in it for profit, zero health testing or research involved at all,
and some BYB are even puppy mills, cranking out as many litters as they can, for profit, and don't much care about the lives the bitches and stud dogs are living.....so long as they can sell those puppies.
If a dog HAS papers, humans will pay top dollar for the PAPERS, when exact same dog is being put down in their local dog pound.
but the dog being put down, has somehow, lost his "papers". Too too many humans put too much store by a dog's papers, imo.
A dog having papers says nothing about a dog's health, function or ability or potential. All the papers prove, is,
there's a real good chance this dog is from a smaller than natural gene pool.
and most breeders seem oblivious to the dog overpopulation crisis,
of the million of dogs being put down every single year,
of how one (1) dog can add hundreds of more dogs to the area in only a few generations,
and in only a few years, 1,000s of more dogs!!
It just increases exponentially from there, and it IS out of control in USA, as well as many other countries.
and most breeders seem unaware how one has to research a purebreds entire family tree for disorders and diseases prior to mating,(less than 10% of breeders do this) A dog can be healthy, yet, be a carrier of one of the increasingly rampant disorders ruining so many breeds.
as well as have properly vetted humans and homes already lined up, prior to mating up dogs...humans who sign papers agreeing they will neuter/spay the dogs they get, and if dog does not work out, the breeder should agree to take back ANY dog they've produced,
for ANY reason, to avoid having the dog end up in the local dog pounds,
like one dog out of each litter does. (stats wise)
Amateur
Experienced Member
people who want a working dog for a purpose wont stand for that crap.
its more about their abilities than what they look like in the family portrait.
What started out as a decent cross breeding of the labradoodles / goldendoodles etc has now exceeded the demand and now producing too many and guess whats showing up in the shelters now.
its more about their abilities than what they look like in the family portrait.
What started out as a decent cross breeding of the labradoodles / goldendoodles etc has now exceeded the demand and now producing too many and guess whats showing up in the shelters now.
GEORGE'SDAD
Well-Known Member
we bred our hounds for HUNTING not looks, it just so happens that the Bluetick Coonhound is the best looking hunting dog EVER imo
tigerlily46514
Honored Member
//"What started out as a decent cross breeding of the labradoodles / goldendoodles etc has now exceeded the demand and now producing too many and guess whats showing up in the shelters now."//
ah, the doodles have no monopoly on that, all breeds (or almost all breeds) are in the pounds. It was just a matter of time til a fairly new breed overpopulates, too.
THE MORE POPULAR THE BREED-----THE MORE LIKELY YOUR LOCAL DOG POUND HAS TOO MANY OF THAT BREED ...
slightly off topic,
but for reasons i do not fully understand,
many humans take an almost uppity attitude about crossbred or "new" breeds or "designer" dogs. I don't get it. (not that YOU are doing that Amateur, not at all, it's just more ppl need to rethink why they call a labradoodle a designer dog,
but same exact ppl think a pug or bloodhound is not?? why?)
ALL DOGS ARE "DESIGNER" DOGS.
ALL OF 'EM.
with the possible exception of dingo dogs and mutts.
I rather like the mixing breeds will be expanding the gene pools a bit, and if done by educated breeders, diseases and disorders can be reduced/removed,
and i can easily understand how someone with an allergic child might crave a dog who is less likely to cause an allergic reaction. At least, THAT design had a rational purpose to it, but how can one explain what some extremist humans have done to dachsunds or pugs or Pekingnese? or other severely mutated breeds....
ah, the doodles have no monopoly on that, all breeds (or almost all breeds) are in the pounds. It was just a matter of time til a fairly new breed overpopulates, too.
THE MORE POPULAR THE BREED-----THE MORE LIKELY YOUR LOCAL DOG POUND HAS TOO MANY OF THAT BREED ...
slightly off topic,
but for reasons i do not fully understand,
many humans take an almost uppity attitude about crossbred or "new" breeds or "designer" dogs. I don't get it. (not that YOU are doing that Amateur, not at all, it's just more ppl need to rethink why they call a labradoodle a designer dog,
but same exact ppl think a pug or bloodhound is not?? why?)
ALL DOGS ARE "DESIGNER" DOGS.
ALL OF 'EM.
with the possible exception of dingo dogs and mutts.
I rather like the mixing breeds will be expanding the gene pools a bit, and if done by educated breeders, diseases and disorders can be reduced/removed,
and i can easily understand how someone with an allergic child might crave a dog who is less likely to cause an allergic reaction. At least, THAT design had a rational purpose to it, but how can one explain what some extremist humans have done to dachsunds or pugs or Pekingnese? or other severely mutated breeds....
tigerlily46514
Honored Member
//"people who want a working dog for a purpose wont stand for that crap."//
Lots and lots and lots of ppl,
(even here on DTA)
say, "well, i have to get an AKC registered dog, cuz i want a working dog."
One can find a working dog in the local dog pound, and having papers won't necessarily ensure a dog can work or run far, or be high energy, or be what you expect from that breed, no matter what the breeder tells you. Puppies are mysteries, no way to know for sure,
if that pup will grow up to manifest the recessive shy dog genes or the recessive dog-aggressive dog genes. (the parents can both be normal outgoing friendly dogs).
yeah, the border collie association fought against having the AKC "recognize" the centuries old breed called border collies...fought for decades.........but lost.
and in the late 90s, the AKC "recognized" the BC as an official breed,
and began issuing the typical arbitrary beauty standards to be met,
and doling out "PAPERS" to border collies...
there is cash to be made!!!!!!!!!
although, the BC had 4 historical lines, each with it's own body style, coat, etc. BCs bred to herd on mountains, were slightly different looking from BCs bred to herd on fields in slightly warmer areas, etc.
The BC association, was so appalled, to see BCs being paraded around in the AKC beauty contest, they refuse to allow ANY akc registered BC to participate in their herding trials, etc.
Lots and lots and lots of ppl,
(even here on DTA)
say, "well, i have to get an AKC registered dog, cuz i want a working dog."
One can find a working dog in the local dog pound, and having papers won't necessarily ensure a dog can work or run far, or be high energy, or be what you expect from that breed, no matter what the breeder tells you. Puppies are mysteries, no way to know for sure,
if that pup will grow up to manifest the recessive shy dog genes or the recessive dog-aggressive dog genes. (the parents can both be normal outgoing friendly dogs).
yeah, the border collie association fought against having the AKC "recognize" the centuries old breed called border collies...fought for decades.........but lost.
and in the late 90s, the AKC "recognized" the BC as an official breed,
and began issuing the typical arbitrary beauty standards to be met,
and doling out "PAPERS" to border collies...
there is cash to be made!!!!!!!!!
although, the BC had 4 historical lines, each with it's own body style, coat, etc. BCs bred to herd on mountains, were slightly different looking from BCs bred to herd on fields in slightly warmer areas, etc.
The BC association, was so appalled, to see BCs being paraded around in the AKC beauty contest, they refuse to allow ANY akc registered BC to participate in their herding trials, etc.
GEORGE'SDAD
Well-Known Member
and since we are on the topic of "designer dogs" such as puggles and all types of doodles...if those dogs are considered "designer" dogs, can I call Goerge a designer dog since he is GD/SB mix? Some people call them "Saint Danes" or "Great Saints".