Some Dogs Are Born Dog-aggressive, Imo

[tigerlily46514]

Normally dogs would calm down and get distracted by other smells, sounds and activities. Sounds like he is in 'lock-down-mode" when he is angry. Don't think any kind of calming signal will get through to him

Yes, but i am not talking about 'normal' dogs, i am discussing dog-aggressive dogs.

and re: "calming signals will not work". Of Buddy's 4 styles of reactions, his world famous "Chihuahua reaction" is his MOST dramatic, just a heart-stopping, stunning, extreme reaction.
read POST NUMBER THREE on this thread here:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/ideas-on-helping-the-dog-agressive-dog.3595/

Dog-aggressive dogs are not well understood by most ppl, imo.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Running Dog says: //"The owners are long time BC owners and their previous dogs were fine, the owners would never encourage aggression"//

RDog, what is your explanation of that then?
btw,
I hope the owners ARE trying to work with the dog. Most ppl seem to give up, accept it, "too far gone" whatever.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I have never met a dog that is perfectly normal in every way other than severe DA, without there being something that lead to the DA"//

Sara, my dog is perfectly normal NOW, in every way, except he is severely da. But, my dog has known history of abuse, so let's set him aside.
I am baffled, you have not met anyone, or heard of anyone,who raised a pup from birth on, and yet, at about 4 to 6 mos old, the pup, began with first signs of da, and by 9 mos old, it is now a undeniable problem. Really? There are 1,000s of these dogs!!! Dog-aggression help websites are chockful of these humans, most of whom have raised the pup!! And all their other dogs turned out fine! Or the dogs raised concurrently with the da dog, are fine.
Sara, like i've said, if it pleases you in some way, to cling to belief, da dogs are all caused by human error, go ahead and feel that way, but, it is just soooooo easy to disprove. Evne Joanne of this DTA website, has said she raised a da dog, and she is obviously a dog lover, and a professional dog trainer as well.
Just too too too many 1,ooos of da dogs being raised from puppyhood on, by loving normal humans.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//""I DO believe that there are dogs born inherantly shy, I do believe that dogs are born inherantly Dominant, I DO believe that dogs are born high strung, I DO believe that dogs are born with mental disorders, and I DO believe that dogs are born aggressive"//

When you state, you do believe dogs are born aggressive, what does that mean?

why, when you accept there ARE some disorders born into some dogs,
FROM BIRTH ON
do you rule out this one disorder, dog-aggression-------- as possibly being inherent? Other issues, YES! YES, THOSE issues, YES, those are born in.
but dog-aggression, no way!? really? Why is THAT one so different?

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Fighting dogs are bred to have a very high prey drive, a gameness, and a very high tolerance for pain, they are not bred specifically for DA, which is why they can be rehabbed"//

Dog -aggression, nor rehabbing from dog-aggression, NEITHER one is breed specific. 2% of dogs from all breeds are dog-aggressive.
there is no exempt breed. (In USA) And this figure is rising.

It is YOUR personal idea that MV's dogs rehabbed "because of their breed". It is my personal idea that those dogs were born normal brained, and their da was induced.
and like i keep saying, TEMPORARY dog-aggression CAN be induced, yes, yes yes
yes!!
i agree!! but induced da can be rehabbed, regardless of the breed.

The 5% of MV's dogs that were put down/euthanized, could not be rehabbed, yet, they were same breed as the others. That 5% that was euthanized probably had been born with da dog brains. It is almost five years later now.

Again, aggression is THE #1 reason, for dogs to be put down, more than cancer, more than impending slow death, more than all other illnesses combined, for dogs to be euthanized.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Again, i don't really care or know, what word we could use for my theory, whether it is personality, trait, disposition, etc. I admttedly do not know.
but there are dogs,
who are otherwise normal
who display dog-aggression from puppyhood on,
and are that way for life.

they are otherwise lovely dogs, with otherwise normal personalities, no other issues, just they can't get on with most other dogs.
i don't really care or quibble with the word you wanna slap onto whatever THAT is called.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Sara, the 2 dogs you cite as displaying adult onset dog-aggression,
You do not explain what the dog did to the puppy, was it a bite or merely an aggressive display? Was the adult dog evaluated for thyroid issues, arthritis, or other health problems? etc etc. Sara, your friend must have "done something" wrong raising that dog, since all da dogs are caused by mistreatment....right?

The 2nd dog, was not raised from birth on, and so we will have to toss out that dog, he displayed his da in his first year with her. Newly rescued dogs often take some times to be confident enough to display their true selves.

And sometimes the dog IS right to complain about antoher dog's behavior. Happens all the time, even with normal dogs. Even my Buddy is occasionally right, when he objects to another dog's behavior.

(i feel, since you are ignoring all the 1,000s and 1,000s of da dogs, raised by normal humans, yet turned out to be da dogs, ("maybe it was a look" the dog was given that made him turn out wrong??? come ON!!!)
So if you want to toss out the 1,000s and 1,000s of humans who raised da dogs but did everything right, ("could have been a look")
i can toss out your one (1) example of a dog you claim was raised from birth on, and did not display *any* da tendencies til it was 2 years old. seems fair trade for you, one(1) dog story vs. 1,000s and 1,000s of dog stories, allllll over all the dog-aggression help boards.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Oliver's fine with people as long as they dont look at him"//

Have you tried having other ppl offer him slow blinks when they look at him?

and/or deep sighs, yawns, lip-licks, etc?? Or have person look away, and then back, not just stare at dog? MIght be worth a try.
Direct unblinking stares are considered rude or even confrontational in the dog language.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"but if they need to look down to look at him, that's his threshold, and nothing I do, can get him past that... not that I've given up"//

what have you tried? and how often does Ollie get to work on this? I'm glad you haven't given up.
Have you been able to even reduce his issues with plastic bags, etc?

Sara, i do not completely understand your insistance,
that a da dog,
has multiple issues.

i do not understand why you insist, all da dogs have an entire personality disorder. Mine doesn't.
Certainly, he DID, but i spent much time, working through all his other issues when he first arrived, and now, he has only the one(1) left, dog-aggression. Buddy has ZERO other behavorial problems, none, nada, zippo.

(he does have off/on fear of the dark, but, if i work with him on that, i can get him normal in the dark again. But, if i don't work on that one every few months, well, he defaults back to that one. Even if i haven't worked with him recently on the fear of the dark, i can walk him outside in the dark, and get him relaxed out there in only a moment or two). Otherwise, no issues whatsoever. He is cool with vaccuums, plastic bags, weird objects, new people, screaming kids, noises, new items, thunderstorms, getting vet care, getting his nails clipped, getting baths, having ticks pulled off, whatever we wanna do, leaning over him, ear care, you name it, Buddy is cool with it...............
pretty mellow otherwise, well, he is active but not anxious dog. Buddy is not a fearful dog. He is not destructive, doesn't even dig holes, does not carry on chewing up our stuff, nothing, he's never destroyed anything, is very obedient, friendly respectful dog, he doesn't whine or display any other issues at all, not fear, not shy, not pushy, not aggressive (except to most dogs) not anything else at all wrong with my dog!!!

nope, he isn't. but, i've said that any number of times, yet, you continue to insist your wrong opinion that all da dogs have multiple issues.

There are 1,000s and 1,000s of otherwise 'normal' dogs, who have one (1) issue----they do not get on with most other dogs.

Maybe, since Ollie has a whole smorgasboard of issues, you extrapolate all da dogs are like your own dog??? when in fact, da dogs are often just fine in every other way. Your insistance, and relentless focus on all da dogs have multiple issues/entire personality disorder, is not helpful in this discussion. Especially since it is not true for most da dogs.

 

[Dodge]

I am going to upset you now,no doubt and I do apoligize in advance,as I think your theory is right
But . . .this is where I am going to make you think I m a right cow nowand I really dont want to be,honest

I m not entirely sure if you are asking for an arguement,or if you are thinking that the whole world is against you on this (and I m not,I can see your point totally!!) reading this its Sara putting her point across and you putting your point across and both of you have got the most uinteresting points
I m sure that Sara is not trying to tell you that your arguement is utterly bonkers,she is just trying to explain what she has dealt with with her doggies,and the same with you,you are trying to let othe people know what you are dealing with and doing so in the most loving way to show your dog/trying to teach him/trying to help him deal with certain situations and you are doing the most amazing job,but it does not mean that every dog or even some dogs cant be cured,I can totally see both of your points

EVERY dog is different at the end of the day

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Ollie does not generalize, he goes on a case by case basis"//

Ollie probably CAN generalize objects, like plastic bags. If you can desensitize him to one plastic bag, and keep working on it til he is solidly okay with plastic bags---it CAN be done---- he'll be okay with all plastic bags.

This could be a very very very good learning excercize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sara, if you can even take ONE of Ollie's issues, and successfully work through it, it might add to both your knowledge, Ollie's confidence, and your feeling of hope. Something easily controllable, like plastic bags, might be good starting point.

weirdly, buddy has fascination with plastic bags, all of them, he comes running if we open any plastic bag. Well, no, not the kind we use for trash, he is not interested in THOSE bags............ but the kind we bring home groceries in.
Every new toy he's ever gotten, arrived inside a plastic bag, and as a result, he will follow anyone in the family who walks in carrying a plastic bag, til he is sure there is no toy in it. ha.
so to add to his fun, we always leave all toys inside the bag, so he can enjoy messing around with the bag to get his new toy. (he LOVES new toys, just goes ecstatic to get a new toy).

Buddy was initially afraid of our vaccuum, and i tried many things to get him used to it, not sure now which one worked, but, Sara, laff, cuz, i used to toss treats to him at one point in this training, while i vaccuumed....

and i'm kinda sorry i did that, cuz NOW, whenever i vaccuum, Buddy tries to sit next to the vaccuum...hoping for treats,
or somehow i misled him into thinking he SHOULD sit by vaccuum.....sigh. ONe of my mistakes....makes it hard to vaccuuum now, cuz Buddy is always trying to show how he is calm to sit right where i am trying to vacuum, rofl!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

there i *think* i replied to all the points...i *think* i am caught up. (i didn't RE-reply about the "neutered too soon/too late/whatever, causes da dogs", cuz i already have).

Da dogs, come in both genders, neutered, unneutered, neutered as adults, neutered as young dogs, never neutered at all, is not a factor in dog-aggression. Many feel female dogs are more likely to be da dogs.

but, dog-aggression IS a poorly understood thing, and most of us all harbor misconceptions about it.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Dodge, i didn't understand your remark. I do not see anything "upsetting" in your post. at all.

I am disagreeing with some points that some ppl are making. This does not mean i do not like the person, nor does it mean i think they are bad people. I simply do not agree with their point of view.

I do not agree that all dog-aggression is result of dogs being mishandled. Far too many 1,000s and 1,000s of examples of ppl who have many dogs, and only one is da, or ppl who have raised many 'normal' dogs, but jsut one turned out da.
It is implausible on it's face that all da dogs have been mishandled by same humans who love dogs, and raised other normal dogs. I think this is fairly logical thing to say!!

I think, as the title says, some dogs are born dog-aggressive, their brain wiring is wrong, just as some dogs are born shy. I do not care what word is applied to that, some ppl do. I don't care what you call this disorder.

I do know, most dogs, whether they were born shy, or dog-aggressive, can be made somewhat better or worse.
I agree, a da dog can be created by humans, but, that is not same thing as a "born that way" dog, and those dogs who have induced da, can be rehabbed, since their brains are normally wired. To me, there IS a distinction, between an inherently da dog, and one that is 'created'(temporary.)

I do not agree that all dog-aggressive dogs have "multiple issues." I am not just talking about *my* dog, but, from what i've learned on dog-aggression help sites, and other websites on dog agression....not just *my* dog.

if that is "asking for an argument" in your opinion, that is okay with me if you think so. And no, Dodge, to me, this is not personal, i do not "think the whole world is against ME" i actually don't think this thread is about ME at all....but, i do think most ppl have rampant misconceptions on the causes of da dogs, and i think

Dog Whisperer has propagated those myths, as well as many other now widely believed myths.
The very notion of a dog, even possibley being born dog-aggressive or shy, is upsetting to those of us who love dogs and prefer to think of dogs as perfect beings.
Even if a myth is widely believed, that does not make it true. Most humans once believed the earth was flat....didn't make it true.

edit: whoops, in post #81, i did not put quote marks around someone else's remark. whoopsie! now it looks as if that is MY opinion, but, first line of post #81, is not my remark or thought,
and that first line of post #81 should have been put in //quote marks.//

 

[Dodge]

I m glad that my post did not offend you,really I am I did not mean that everybody is against you in person,just your theory(and I am not!!)
Please dont take it personel,I only put a comment on and really did not mean to upset anybody

 

[running_dog]

Running Dog says: //"The owners are long time BC owners and their previous dogs were fine, the owners would never encourage aggression"//

RDog, what is your explanation of that then?
btw,
I hope the owners ARE trying to work with the dog. Most ppl seem to give up, accept it, "too far gone" whatever.

I just felt it was an interesting example of aggressive behaviour directed at humans. I'm not trying to draw any conclusions as frankly they can't be drawn conclusively from this particular animal.

On the one hand it could be heritable aggression but on the other hand as far as I remember the pup was probably underage when they were "sold a pup", it was dangerously worm ridden and needed a lot of nursing to get it to full health. It is possible that it had had bad experiences before they got it and it was certainly not socialised. Possibly when the owners took the time to care for it the puppy fixed on them and became over protective/hostile to other people. They probably didn't have a lot of visitors and so the pup decided there were just two wonderful people in the world and it wasn't going to waste time on the rest!

Perhaps if someone like you or Sara worked with it the pup would have grown up "normal" I don't know. As it ended up it's a nutcase but it still managed to get a home with people it loves and who love it .

 

[running_dog]

obviously females are not a part of this. DA in females is not caused by being spayed too early.

I had a look around at a few websites and I have found this (or something like this) a couple of times. Not a disagreement with Sara, just a slightly different aspect to the discussion...

"Dominance aggression may be controlled by androgen since females who show aggression before spaying become more aggressive afterwards."

They don't seem to cite any good evidence therefore I'll leave people to chase it up themselves if they are interested. However they talk about aggression before puberty, that only some females show this aggression, and about it being exacerbated by spaying (there we go again... dog owners doing all the right things). There's no point arguing about this because it can be used to support either that the underlying causes of aggression are heritable or that aggression itself is heritable in some way. But it is interesting isn't it?!?

 

[sara]

Very interesting!!! I'll be looking into this one! I'd never heard og it before... off to google! LOL

 

[sara]

I'm asking some others on another forum I'm on, to see what they say... I've had 10 replies so far, and the thoughts are slightly mixed... so far... I'm waiting for the experts to spot the post They'll do so soon hopefully, and we'll see what I get then.

As to Oliver, yes, I do use calming signals. as do others that I instruct to do so, it helps him with that single case, sometimes, as long as there's no eye contact. but if a person is willing to sit quietly, and offer calming signals without looking at him, and completely ignoring him, he'll become curious, then climb on them, and kiss their face... he's a really snuggly, playful dog with people and dogs he knows will not hurt him, though he can freak, if someone other than me, or a dog other than his pack does something to scare him.

He snarls and lunges at strangers, and would bite if given the opportunity, if they look at him, or reach for him... people are mostly dumb when it comes to meeting strange dogs... they ALWAYS look them in the face, and that ALWAYS invokes a reaction from Oliver.

Somethings I can de-sensitize, and somethings I cant, and believe me, I try... I've done and still do everything you've suggested for the plastic bags... I try to make a game out of laundry... I really have no idea why he's afraid of it... he's fine if the bag or clothes are on the floor, but if it's held, rattled or flapped around, he runs and hides. I even tried a game of tug with my t-shirt and socks... I have recently had to buy some new cloths... as now he thinks they're toys, but if I'm folding the laundry, so therefore shaking and flapping, he hides...

But again, work in progress, and I dont think he cant get over it, he just needs time... alot of time, and patience, and work.

And if you'll check out the threat I posted a couple of days ago about Oliver, you'll see how well he's doing...

But fear can be extreme, and take a long time to overcome. My friend who's a behaviourist told me that Ollie's a perfect example of a dog that would have been euth'd if he'd not come to a person like me, she says I have a very good grasp of techniques needed to help Ollie, and that he's come so amazingly far, and that we will get there... one day.

I'm putting him in an obedience class of hers soon, and we will see. He knows his obedience, and he's very good, but he needs the structure of a class, and as she doesn't allow the dogs in her class to sniff or greet eachother, Oliver and the rest of the dogs'll be safe

Then he'll go into her Canine Freestyle class in the fall... tee hee, that'll be a blast!

 

[reveuse]

Im reading this on my phone , read pg one so far. I agree with what you say about dog agression but in your first posy daid that people agression is learned or the result of not socializing. I have to disagree . Ro had absolutely zero agression towards men / people til the Abusive situation with my neighbor happened. He was very well and properly socialized til that point as I wanted to do therapy work with him.

Just saying....

 

[reveuse]

Dude Im a jackhole that would fall umder the learned category, duh sammie. *smacks self*