Some Dogs Are Born Dog-aggressive, Imo

[sara]

But now that I've said all that, I am willing to learn more about you're theory, and talk to others who deal with the same stuff... I'm not set in my ways, I want to learn, so an open mind, and a willingness to explore others ideas and theories are something that I value. I will do the research, and come to my own conclusions, with your help, of course!

 

[Dodge]

To Dodge,
the thing is, so far as i know,
a dog-aggressive dog,
or a shy dog,
can be born to parents who do NOT manifest this disorder. The parents can be FINE, and still whelp puppies with either of these disorders.
I do not know enough to know, if this gene is a recessive gene (one that is carried but doesn't always show, like blue eyes) but can be passed on.

LIke i said, i met a breeder guy online, whose happy outgoing friendly dog, ALWAYS always produced some dogs in the litter who were born shy. Always. His dog, although fine, always made shy pups. NOt all the pups, but always some of the pups would be born shy. This does make it sound like it is a recessive gene.

So "seeing the parents" of the puppy you take home, in no way guarantees your infant dog would not grow up to be dog-agressive..

Wow,I find this thread utterly gripping.I ve only thrown my penny's worth in and actually totally understand your point, after reading through it all I obviously forgot that point you made alreadysorry,I dont want you to feel like you have to repeat yourself over and over

Ever. Buddy tenses up at mere sight of another dog, and it takes earthquakes to break his focus on other dog. Even if other dog is far away, Buddy gets tense. Even blocks away, Buddy begins his laser eye onto that dog. Even if bunnies go by, even brand new squeak toys, Buddy keeps his eyes locked onto enemy dog nonstop.
Soon as he gets close enough, he reacts. (i mean, if i do nothing to help Buddy)



HA, I WISH i had a nickle, for everytime some startled human, whose sweet friendly dog is arguing back with Buddy, say, "Geez, MY dog NEVER acts like this!" and i smile and say, "Yeah, we get that a lot..Buddy has that effect on other dogs."

I just want to say,"HAT OFF!" for helping your dog,reading through all this,your Buddy is soo lucky to have found you (no doubt you re thinking,hang on a minute,its more like the other way round !) but like you said,so many DA dogs get put down,because people cant be asked to put the work in and you just know every little movement of your boy,just amazing,I know jack about DA(though I thought it would be from birth,not just down to socializing),so this thread has opened my eyes totally,wow,what an interesting informative readTHANK YOU!

 

[tigerlily46514]

to Sara---

the author had noted her dog's da behavior prior to making the mistakes so many owners of da dogs make. She was stunned by his behavior. She hadn't tried correcting it, when she first ever noticed it. She feels her dog was born hard wired to be dog-aggressive. she did feel she did make mistakes later on, in trying to correct the behavior, but, the baby dog was already displaying da behavior before that. She readily admits, not knowing a thing about da dogs, that she dismissed his earliest signs he wasn't 'right'. Like all other humans who are unaware of da dogs, she did not recognize it, did not realize it would become his lifelong pattern.

and at first, she too, chalked it up to a bad day/bad moment, some fluke that day, but, looking back, she admitted, she could see her dog was never right, not even as puppy. (BEFORE she'd ever corrected a thing.)

you can not "CREATE" a persistantly da dog, nope. Not even MIchael Vick could do it. NO one can "create" a persistantly da dog, it takes a special brain wiring, imo.

//"I'm not saying DA is rare, I'm saying that if it's true that dogs can be born DA, it's rare. and dogs becoming DA in puppyhood is common."//
I adressed the "rare" from birth on, comment very well, and logically, and thoroughly, at length, above, in comment #53.

i think i make valid points, if you disagree with one of my points, please feel free to point out my error. It is not rare, see comment #53. Simply repeating you still 'feel' it is rare, is not helpful to me to understand on what basis you repeat the remark again without further explanation.

//"Though I've known several dogs who've become DA at around the age of 2-3 as full maturity has been reached."//
At the risk of being rude, i doubt this. I"m sorry, i have never ever ever ever heard of this ever. NOt ever. Never. I'd SO love to email them, if i could??? I'm serious!! they may have dog who become temporarily da dogs, which i have discussed at length, many times in this thread, and that is curable, but not true, persistant da dogs. That always always shows up in puppyhoood, ALWAYS.

//"It's extremely common for a dog to develop DA around the age of 9 months, due to a fear stage gone through at that point."//
It is extremely common for their ongoing da behavior to become undeniable by age 9 months, i personally, have NEVER heard of any dog that suddenly developed true, persistant da behavior after that age. (although i hear you claim you have, i haven't, and most other owners if not all other owners of da dogs, have ever seen such a dog either, talk about RARE!!!)
But, almost all humans will say it showed up earlier, much earlier, by age 4 to 6 months old, but, at THAT baby age, no one much worried about, it is overlooked
OR
mistaken for puppy play (honestly, if you knew nothing about da dogs, and saw a baby dog attacking his littermates, would you even feel the slightest inkling of concern? That IS almost cute, and looks like harmless puppy play, doesn't it? Plus, the dog-momma is there, and often corrects, too. Esp with the short att'n span of baby dogs, who jump on a littermate at 10am, and forgot about him at 10:05 am, it is very very easy to miss or dismiss)
or not noticed
or seen as 'cute'
or overlooked/dismissed/"bad day"/"tired lil baby dog"

but, yes, i agree, by nine months, no one but no one can deny it or miss it anymore. Nope. Unless, somehow, you live wayyyyyy out in the country, never see other dogs, somehow. *Maybe* in those farm type lifes, one could not realize their dog is a da dog til it is full grown adult.

And even IF IF IF it could be proven, that ALLLLLLLLL these ppl, living with da dogs, who said it showed up at age 4 to 6 mos old, even IF IF IF you could discredit all of them, and write them all off as nutters or liars,
some brain disorders DO present at maturity, like most of the human forms of schizophrenia. Many schizos, although born with defective brains, do not manifest their illness, til they are mature. So that would not negate the idea the da dog is born with defective brain.

//"Besides, I must say that you DONT know what Buddy went through before you got him. He may not have been born DA, they may have put him in with a dog who scared him, obviously, he was scared and aggressive to people as well, though you've been able to cure that. Yes he's extremely reactive, but it doesn't mean he was born that way.

He may have been born more fearful than others, and with one bad experience, it turned him reactive."//

I don't know why you do not believe me, when i tell you my dog is not fearful type of dog. but whatever. He is not. He is easy going dog. He just hates most dogs.
I explain all that already, why i think he is born that way, many many many times now, scroll back, i've answered and answered and answered that, repeatedly, i myself,
do not really think,
continuing to merely repeat the logical answer i have already posted to that same question,
over and over,
and over, will bring you to a new viewpoint. Sara, if it pleases you on some level, to hold onto your belief, that all dogs are born with 'normal' brains,
and all dogs with issues are "created" by humans, that is your right to hold onto that mindset. But it is not logical, and i have listed many many logical, rational, easy to understand points above.

scroll back, i've answered that SAME question, (why do i think Buddy has the inborn kind) any number of times, if you aren't even reading my replies, is no point to post here, but, if you want to take a point i made and dispute that point, please do, but, not even reading when i HAVE answered that SAME question, a few times, is useless...)

Sara, do you agree or dispute the inherently SHY dog show up in the litter box? from birth on.
Yes? or No?

Many many ppl are aware of dogs born inherently shy, (but some even deny THAT one, too). Sara, are you aware that baby dogs can be BORN, straight out of the uterus, as inherently shy? YOur answer to that, will help me realize many things about if continuing this debate is going to just go around in circles, with you reposting and reposting the same questions over and over, that i have already logically answered.
It is perfectly okay to disagree with me, Sara, most of the world does!!! Sara, if you wish to maintain, all dogs are born with nicely wired brains, have at it!! It is your right to believe whatever you want to, absolutely!!! Whether it is true or not, if it pleases you on some level, that is fine to think the way you do, no harm done!!!

 

[running_dog]

Another question, in another post you stated that dogs are not born people aggressive, but if they can be born dog aggressive, why cant they be born people aggressive?

I'm going back a few posts and I know you were mostly talking to tigerlily but I have to agree with lots of what you say in your posts Sara. I suspect that dogs which are born with a genetic predisposition to aggression could evidence this to whatever they fix on, like our psychopath dog Jip. When he was aggressive it was to ANYTHING that he didn't like - including the reflections under the piano . Some dogs will become obsessively aggressive about one particular object and this object could be other dogs.

Plus he was neutered too young, which many believe is a cause of DA as well. Dogs go through a "supermale" stage from 9-18 months, I do believe, where they put out large amounts of hormons... Many believe the function of this is for the other males around to teach the "massively hormonal" adolescent some manners. They get put in their place, and repeatedly told off... Without that, they often dont get the proper manners bullied into them, which causes them to be a tad wrong in their approach of other dogs.

This is the first time I have seen this written down and I agree 100%. I am forever grateful to a big deerhound cross for teaching Zac doggy manners when he was about a year old. He has a far better understanding of how to interact with other dogs - even notoriously aggressive dogs - than many neutered animals. As you say it isn't the explanation of all aggression but it does explain some dog aggression when people might think they have done everything right.

 

[tigerlily46514]

I am no expert on dog agression, and i need to point that out, i am only presenting my own theory, that some dog-agressive dogs, are BORN that way. That's all i'm saying. I for one, am flat out sick of hearing ppl say dog are 'messed up' cuz WE did something, or are 'doing something' wrong.

You can accept it
or
reject it.

and no, NOT all agression is fear based. My dog is NOT a fearful dog, in general. NOpe. (where's Tx, she knows my dog, well, sort of) My dog has 4 types of reactions, one of them IS fear based, the others are not fear based.

It is VERY DIFFICULT for me to find info on dog agression that i *TOTALLY* agree with completely, nope!!!
(typically, there will be at least one line or remark i disagree with)
but here is a list of 18 types of dog-aggression, not all of which are 'fear' based:
http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/aggression_types.html

 

[tigerlily46514]

and to Sara, dogs CAN and DO generalize objects, i am happy to help you work on desensitizing him to plastic bags, flapping blankets, bicycles, etc etc, that CAN be done!! Yes, it CAN!!!

it is almost fun, it is NOT stressful to either your dog, or to you, promise!

and Sara, have you tried working with desensitizing Ollie to groups of ppl, starting at HIS comfort zone, rewarding calm behavior, and each day, moving closer? Have you had random strangers toss him treats daily? (or hand them to Ollie, when he gets to that point).

Have you tried the calming signals?? the dog "body language" on him, to tell Ollie, "calm down"?? wow, THAT reeeeeeeally helped Buddy a lot, i've got some miralces to report, using dog body language to him.

 

[running_dog]

I agree with a lot that has been said in opposing posts and I wonder if there is some talking at cross purposes in this thread which is why it is going round in circles. I don't think anyone believes that all dogs are born the same. They will all have different challenges. Aggression OR the factors underlying aggression are potentially one of these. For instance the doberman/greyhound is not a popular cross because there have been reports of it turning on it's owner when stressed.

A lot of us experience what could be described as dog aggression in our own or other peoples dogs BUT this is not the maniac dog aggression you are talking about Tigerlily. I understand what you mean about you knowing Buddy's nature is confident etc but I think you would be hard pressed to prove scientifically that Buddy is genetically dog aggressive. Lexys? comments about a strain of aggression in some bloodlines is more convincing.

I agree with Sara that dog aggression in your terms is probably not all that common, There is only 1 dog out of the 100 or so that I know by name or sight in my home area that could be described as dog aggressive, although there are several that are aggressive to other dogs. That of course does not allow for the ones that are destroyed as young dogs because the owners don't cope!

Now my computer battery is going so I have to stop editing and post now or lose it...

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yes, running dog, but my dog is not alone, there are many many others. Millions of others, actually.
It is hard to locate a human who has not met a da dog. Unless maybe they live out in country, or something, where they just do not know many dogs.
My neighborhood has probably about 100 dogs in it, and i know of, about 12 da dogs, that *i* know of, but, i do not know every dog in my hood. There could be more. ONe is worse than Buddy, by far, and the ppl in my hood call him "cujo" but we don't know his real name.

I met a woman just this year, had no idea she had a da dog, she says she "never walks her da dog" cuz it is too much stress.

so who knows, how many da dogs are REALLY in my own neighborhood??
Also, for some reason, humans with SMALL da dogs, do not often seem to fully identify they have a da dog....not sure why that is. They even kind of kid around about it...but that same behavior, in 50 lb dog, is not "cute".

You know, i have no idea the % of dogs who are da dogs, that'd be fun to know, but, i don't know the %. Maybe no one does, cuz, like you said, da dogs are usually euthanized, even more often than sick or dying dogs are.

Is 'the' NUMBER ONE reason dogs are euthanized, is aggression...more than illness!! more than cancer! more than ALL illnesses combined!!

it's pretty darn common.

//"There is only 1 dog out of the 100 or so that I know by name or sight in my home area that could be described as dog aggressive, although there are several that are aggressive to other dogs"//

i'm sorry i do not understand, what that remark means. Do you feel, the term "dog-agressive" is different than "aggressive to other dogs" ??

If anyone does feel we can "create" a persistantly da dog,
how do explain Michael Vick could not create da dogs?
Come on, if anything would create a da dog, what Vick did SHOULD create a persistantly da dog, yet, he could not do it. Alllllll those dogs, by you guys' theory that how a dog is treated/bred = creates a persistant da dog, well, THAT should have done it!!

95% of his dogs rehabbed, and rehabbed fairly rapidly, once removed form the ring. (probably normal brained dogs, who were created to be temporarily da) the other 5%, all these years later, dispite having the best trainers/behaviorists/etc, in the world, were put down, or are still in rehab, but geting no better. they probably had the da dog brain, is why THAT handful could not rehab.
there are many many many similar stories, Vick is not the only one who failed to create a da dog.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Running dog, are you aware of inherently SHY dogs?? (born shy, from birth on).

 

[tigerlily46514]

gotta go, be back later, keep on thinking, keep your minds open to unheard of possibilities!!!

 

[abby_someone]

This is the first time I have seen this written down and I agree 100%. I am forever grateful to a big deerhound cross for teaching Zac doggy manners when he was about a year old. He has a far better understanding of how to interact with other dogs - even notoriously aggressive dogs - than many neutered animals. As you say it isn't the explanation of all aggression but it does explain some dog aggression when people might think they have done everything right.

Running dog and Sara too, I am curious about this post. I have (and my family too) always neutered/spayed my dogs by 6 months. I have only had one turn out DA and it was a female. She did not have the fear type aggression body language either. I would like to know more. If you think that it would derail this thread, please feel free to PM me (if this is allowed on this forum, I am new and not really sure). I am really interested in these ideas.

I do agree with Tigerlily though, I think that some dogs are different in the way that they think. Be it chemical, structural, or some other issue at/prior to birth. Perhaps it is not genetic. It could be from a variety of factors during gestation, but they would still be born aggressive. From what I have been able to gather, from several different sources, some dogs with dog aggression can be "cured" but those that are considered "cured" cannot be fully trusted. . Is it really a "cure" then?

 

[running_dog]

Yes, running dog, but my dog is not alone, there are many many others.

I'm not disagreeing with that simply pointing out that it is difficult to prove that your dog is genetically da. The number of da dogs will vary from area to area. I can only speak for my own area, 1% apparent.

Also, for some reason, humans with SMALL da dogs, do not often seem to fully identify they have a da dog....not sure why that is. They even kind of kid around about it...but that same behavior, in 50 lb dog, is not "cute".

Actually small dogs often have lots of other factors to aggravate aggression - lack of stimulation, bossy natures, lack of discipline, spoilt, lack of training. I'm rather sorry for a lot of small dogs. A lot of the factors that Sara described for Irish terriers hold good, they could have a genetic predisposition to dog aggression without being born da.

//"There is only 1 dog out of the 100 or so that I know by name or sight in my home area that could be described as dog aggressive, although there are several that are aggressive to other dogs"//

i'm sorry i do not understand, what that remark means. Do you feel, the term "dog-agressive" is different than "aggressive to other dogs" ??

Yes I do. No dog gets along perfectly with all other dogs all the time. There will be instances when one dog will warn another off (growls, hackles, snap, snarl, lunge). Sometimes one dog will take a particular dislike to another dog/dogs, this can reach a fight situation but is confined to a one or two exception dogs. Some breeds have "attack me" tattooed on their foreheads, a lot of dogs are tempted to attack these, BUT while this attack appears to be instinctive it is also possible to train it out of dogs therefore it is NOT da by your definition (and if you are ever in England and see someone hollering "SPANIEL!" at a dog as it approaches a labrador you'll know you've met me!")

When a dogs default option is to turn into a raging monster every time another dog appears over the horizon while the owner hangs onto a stout tree and wraps the dog lead round his waist and possibly the tree I'd say there is a potentially da dog... I mean that you are saying that Buddy is different from other dogs and I'm agreeing, honest.

I'd guess that you also agree that sometimes some of the things we do or other dogs do can cause dog-dog aggression - I did so myself with Zac as I described on another thread, Michael Vicks did so with his dogs in a much more terrible way. Some dogs are more susceptible to these triggers (for example the Irish Terrier and pit bulls). You and Sara believe that dogs that are caused to aggressive in this way can often be reconditioned.

It is worth keeping in mind with regard to Michael Vicks that most fighting dogs (bull terriers, bulldogs, mastiffs) are not easily roused, it is possible that pits are the same, they are certainly bred to be human friendly. MV was not breeding for a da dog as you describe it but for a dog that was prepared to kill another dog in the context he chose and trained for. Noisy dog aggression as evidenced by Buddy is not normally a desirable characteristic in fighting dogs so it isn't surprising that MV's dogs weren't generally da. Before you protest I think this is also in agreement with yourself - I'm saying that Buddy's symptoms are the result of his genes and that da dogs would be the exception among MV's dogs

I think the only place where there is major disagreement on this thread is where dogs CAN'T be reconditioned whether it is the factors that underlie dog aggression that are heritable or whether it is dog aggression itself that is heritable.

Personally I think that it is more sense that it is the factors that underlie dog aggression that are heritable and additive. This allows better for a spectrum of behaviours. On the basis of what you and others on this thread have said I'll go as far as to suggest that sometimes in some dogs these factors are inherited so strongly that dog aggression is inevitable with or without triggers although in the case of your Buddy I think he probably had his triggers as well .

 

[Ina]

I will never again neuter a dog by choice before the age of 2... EVER AGAIN! In my mind, it was a major, major cause of alot of Ollie's people aggression, and fear of laundry, plastic bags, rollerblades, my bike, flapping blankets.... etc.

Interesting to read this. My vet recommended to have the dog neutered at the age of 5 months. However, I trust my gut feelings more than any vet. It just doesn't seem to be right to have him neutered so early.

Glad that you posted this. Thanks !

 

[Ina]

I think a more comparable human mental disorder would be schizophrenia, (more than depression) which is there at birth, is thought to be in the brain itself, but often does not manifest until maturity, is genetically influenced, and is barely managable but not "curable".
Lolz, my dog is a schizo!!

It might just be a tumor?

Ina, you asked some good questions. Buddy IS def affected EVERY day, too, unlike depression in humans.

• When Buddy has playtime with his dog friends and a strange dog joins in, will Buddy attack that new dog?

Ha ha, i rarely do this. He has rarely been playing happily with one of his few dogs, and had another dog introduced. Since he gets so few opportunities, and since most ppl "know" how he is, few if any ppl bring their dogs around Buddy.
I can only think of one time that happened to Buddy.
We were trying to get Buddy to accept a new dog, "Dog #2", it was tense, Buddy did not 'like' his new playmate and was pestering him, a fight was about to ensue and we were fixing to end the whole thing, and another new dog, "dog #3", came over, and everyone calmed down. So in that case, it all worked out, and the addition of dog #3 was good thing.
But, other than that time, i can't recall any other time Buddy experienced this, cuz, like i said, everyone 'knows' Buddy and do not want their dog around Buddy. He is seen as the neighborhood 'brat', ha ha.

I was hoping he would be different when in "play-mood".

• Is he aggressive towards little puppies (under 3 months of age) ?

Yes. This embarasses me! He will do his "Puppy Reaction" (a bark, a step toward the pup, and then Buddy ends it and walks away, like, "Get off my lawn, kid". I have no idea, if the puppies owner did not always scoop up their infant dog, what would happen, but, no one ever risks it, but, Buddy walks away even before i remove him, he is removing his own self.
Buddy DOES occasionally accept baby female puppies, or young female dogs. sometimes. But it's dicey. NO males, nope.

Now because of this I cannot imagine that his behaviour is instinctive. One of the very basic instincts in dogs is not to hurt pups - no matter what gender they are.
NOW I can agree with you that there is really nothing that can be explained except that it's a thing going wrong in his brain.

• If you meet a new dog and you go go for a walk on leash together with the other dog owner (have to dig out that video that I saw on that) - like dog on the left, dog owner, other dog owner and dog on the right) will Buddy settle after a few steps or continuously try to get to the other dog?

Buddy will continuously try to get to 'Enemy Dog', continuously, never ever ever loses his focus on other dog. Ever. Buddy tenses up at mere sight of another dog, and it takes earthquakes to break his focus on other dog. Even if other dog is far away, Buddy gets tense. Even blocks away, Buddy begins his laser eye onto that dog. Even if bunnies go by, even brand new squeak toys, Buddy keeps his eyes locked onto enemy dog nonstop.
Soon as he gets close enough, he reacts. (i mean, if i do nothing to help Buddy)
If we go by that same spot again, Buddy tenses looking to see if "Enemy Dog" is still there in that area.
(this is what happens if i do not intervene, i do interrupt this though) Buddy especially fears all GSDs, and has memorized all their houses, and tenses up to even drive by their house, inside of a car!!!??? Buddy can be lying on car seat, and knows when we are going by his nemisis' house, and stands up, on alert, to see if he can get glimpse of the GSD out the window!! HOw nutz is THAT!!??

Normally dogs would calm down and get distracted by other smells, sounds and activities. Sounds like he is in 'lock-down-mode" when he is angry. Don't think any kind of calming signal will get through to him.

• What made him be friends with his dog friends? Is it the same scenario for each dog friend?

No, each one was different. HIs most beloved pal, Duncan, a male golden retriever, Buddy loved on sight, no work from me whatsoever. See, if Buddy WHINES, i know he will like the other dog. I always listen for that wonderful but rarely heard WHINE, which means "Mom, i LIKE that dog!!"
I heard Buddy WHINE so i asked the guy if my dog could meet his dog, he said, "duncan loves all dogs" and so i allowed Buddy to meet Duncan, and wa-la, he loved Duncan. That one (1) dog, just Duncan.

I wish dogs could talk - would be interesting to see what made Buddy like this dog without even sniffing the other dogs behind??

 

[running_dog]

By the way, I've just thought that I actually do know of a human aggressive dog (a BC/terrier cross?) that behaves rather like Buddy but to people, it was also from a puppy farm but they got it as a small (possibly too small?) pup. The owners are long time BC owners and their previous dogs were fine, the owners would never encourage aggression. It isn't schizophrenic or complicated, it simply goes beserk with everyone except its owners.

This dog is the size of a medium terrier, looks delightfully cute (like a slender tricolour BC puppy) - and single pawedly puts gangs of drunken youths to flight at 2 am in the morning which is the only time its owner dares to walk it...

 

[sara]

OK Tigerlily. Running Dog summerized my thoughts quite well, I really dont think you're understanding the points I'm disagreeing with. And Running Dog has picked up on what I'm saying... obviously I'm not being clear. I hate typing and therefor try to keep things as short as possible. but that's not getting the point across, and I dont know how to explain it differently. I'm not often able to get my thoughts out in the written word properly (just ask my english teachers when I was in high school! LOL)

I DO believe that there are personalities, breeds, traits and genetics that can make a dog more prone to DA, but I dont believe that DA IS a personality on it's own. It is part of a personality. I know dog on dog aggression is not rare, but in every case I've met and worked with, there is a trigger, either human, or animal or circumstances. I have never met a dog that is perfectly normal in every way other than severe DA, without there being something that lead to the DA.

I DO believe that there are dogs born inherantly shy, I do believe that dogs are born inherantly Dominant, I DO believe that dogs are born high strung, I DO believe that dogs are born with mental disorders, and I DO believe that dogs are born aggressive. I also believe that some forms of shy, aggressive, and mentally unstable dogs cannot be rehabbed.

What I'm not convinced of is that DA dogs are born that way. I think that if a dog is predisposed to DA, (having a personality, trait or improper handling) DA becomes a problem. Fighting dogs are bred to have a very high prey drive, a gameness, and a very high tolerance for pain, they are not bred specifically for DA, which is why they can be rehabbed. the Vick dogs that they're having trouble rehabbing are the extremely fearful ones, and the very successful ones, ones that spent years fighting, and winning... and even they are getting there. Georgia and Meryl are doing very well, and are beginning to take to other dogs, Meryl in particular.

I'm willing to conceed that there are dogs who are born with a mental imbalance in their brains causing aggression, but I dont believe that that manifests only into DA. I think the dog would likely be aggressive to everything. I believe there is a cause or a trigger for 99.9% of DA dogs, something happened to allow the DA to manifest out of a dog predisposed to it. but I really, really dont think it's a stand alone issue. It may be such a small thing, it goes unnoticed by owners, it may be being neutered to young, and it may be just a look that upsets the dog for the first time. it may be a harsh word the first time the dog growls at another dog for being too close, and it may be an injury while playing that the soon to be DA dog receives that it blames on the other dog.

There are many, MANY causes for DA, and if you're right, and dogs can be born DA as a personality in and of itself, than that is just one small part of the whole.

As to you asking about dogs developing DA at maturity. I have a friend who adopted a dog off a reserve as an 8 week old puppy. That dog was raised with many fosters, both cat and dog, she never showed an ounce of aggression to anything for the first 2 years of her life. shortly after she turned 2, she attacked a puppy, out of nowhere, and for no reason... and, it was a puppy that was being fostered by her owner. and it'd been there for a week already... I was there for that attack, and I dont know what started it... the puppy was no where near Abbey, she just got up and attacked the puppy from across the yard. The problems got worse from there, and now, Abbey at 6 years old, cannot be around other dogs, ever. she will be fine one minute, and attack the next. but she's still fine with people and cats... I am baffled by the behaviour. I know of another dog, who developed DA after his owner had been fostering for some time. he was 4 years old when she started fostering, 5 the first time he attacked a foster. His owner has had to stitch up a few dogs because of Monty... again, she has no idea why the aggression started, he used to be fine, and went to dog parks, and was well socialized.

As to desensitizing Ollie's fears, sometimes it work, sometimes it doesnt... he used to be terrified of bird feathers on the ground... please dont ask me why, that's a weird one. but I got him over that by making it a game, and eventually getting him to retreive it... now he collects feathers for me LOL.

Oliver's fine with people as long as they dont look at him. he can be right next to someone, and take treats, he'll touch their hand with his nose, and he'll touch them with his paw... but the minute they look at him, he goes into fight or flight mode... unfortunately, he chooses fight more often than not. He's also fine in groups of people, as long as they're ignoring him, he can go easily into Petsmart, do some training and some tricks, he is perfectly fine, as long as I prevent the "lookers" from getting too close. He's also fine if they look at him from a distance, but if they need to look down to look at him, that's his threshold, and nothing I do, can get him past that... not that I've given up, I will continue working on this forever, if that's what it takes. I'm working with a behaviourist, I use an anxiety wrap, I've talked to TTouch specialists, trust me, I am not letting this go... but that's where he is right now.

Ollie does not generalize, he goes on a case by case basis. He has his friends, and he has people he likes, and once he knows someone, that's it, he's friends for life. but the next person or dog he meets? he'll go right back to the previous behaviour. I can bring dogs into my house, and I can take Oliver to other dogs houses, if introduced properly, he's fine, and Ollie does love a good romp... but the next one? reverts him back to the attack dog from hell.

And Tigerlily, I'm not fighting with you, I am hoping to have a good, open minded debate. I am willing to learn, but your last post to me was a tad bit harsh. I'm not going around in circles, and I have told you why I believe what I do, and given examples... please dont get upset with me. It's just the experiences I have had, and the others around me have had. I am willing to conceed points, if the evidence and the theory is sound. I am a very open minded person, but I need to truly believe before I conceed the point, and I really dont yet. This kind of thing is alot of fun for me, but I'll bow out if I'm not having fun anymore. And I'm sorry when what I say is not understood, and I'm argued against, even though I was saying the same as you. It's seems to have happened alot in this thread. Running Dog spotted this problem, too.

Sorry for the long post, and I hope it's clearer.

 

[sara]

Running dog and Sara too, I am curious about this post. I have (and my family too) always neutered/spayed my dogs by 6 months. I have only had one turn out DA and it was a female. She did not have the fear type aggression body language either. I would like to know more. If you think that it would derail this thread, please feel free to PM me (if this is allowed on this forum, I am new and not really sure). I am really interested in these ideas.

I do agree with Tigerlily though, I think that some dogs are different in the way that they think. Be it chemical, structural, or some other issue at/prior to birth. Perhaps it is not genetic. It could be from a variety of factors during gestation, but they would still be born aggressive. From what I have been able to gather, from several different sources, some dogs with dog aggression can be "cured" but those that are considered "cured" cannot be fully trusted. . Is it really a "cure" then?

A dog that has very little confidence to begin with, be it shy or anxious, if it's neutered and loses the testosterone, can become severely lacking in confidence. Not all dogs neutered young have tis issue, but it does affect some dogs really badly. a confident dog will not have this issue.

Also, when I was going to the dog park on a regular basis, I witnessed several dog fights... 90% of them were started by Neutered males. NOT the intact dogs. I think it's a very important part of growing up to go through this "supermale" stage and get beaten up by other dogs on a regular basis... (arguments and manner training type "beatings" not all out attacks) Mature males smell the wild amount of hormones in the system, and will single out that adolescent, will discipline evry infraction, no matter how small... it's a very important stage of socialization for an adolescent male dog.

obviously females are not a part of this. DA in females is not caused by being spayed too early.

on another note, the health risks in neutered males seriously outweigh the health risks for keeping a dog intact. Spaying however is better than keeping a female intact, health wise. If I have a choice, I wont likely ever neuter another dog, but my girls will always be spayed at maturity, not before. I will never breed dogs, but I want what's best for my dogs, in everything.

Vets will tell you anything to get you to spay and neuter early, as there is such a problem with overpopulation and accidental litters. I dont think I would trust many people with intact dogs. And honestly, I'd rather see someone spay their dog early, and lose a year or 2 off it's lifespan, than have that dog accidentally be bred, and add to the overpopulation problem... but I will never have an accidental litter, I have alot of control over my dogs. and will keep my girlies safe until they're spayed.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Ha, i'm way behind, i will try to reply in order of the ones i haven't read yet.

//"I'm not disagreeing with that simply pointing out that it is difficult to prove that your dog is genetically da. "//

I so agree, i feel my dog is genetically da based on the PERSISTANCE of his da. Dogs who DID suffer traumas, who were born 'normal' DO rehab, dogs who are born da, do not fully recover. Based on THAT, i feel Buddy was born da.
but, like i've asked several times now, let's set MY dog aside, since you are correct, we can not prove MY dog, had he been raised properly, would be da. But we can point at many 1,00os of dogs who WERE raised properly, yet, turned out to be da, and it allllllwwwwwwwayyyyyyyys shows up in puppyhood, always.
Da dogs who are "created", by abuse, etc, DO rehab.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Michael Vick's dogs were in horrible state when first rescued, many could not even walk without crawling, many were excessively fearful of both humans and dogs, reactive to other dogs, fighting with all dogs all the time, and many had behaviors and issues that were extreme, yet, 95% of them rehabbed.
i stand by my statement, i do not think one can create a PERSISTANTLY da dog. Many were dog-aggressive, reactive dogs at first, whether or not that was MV's intention, that was the result for many of his dogs--a temporary form of da dogs.

//"It might just be a tumor?"//
No, many forms of adult onset schizophrenia are thought to be genetically passed on, present from birth on, but symptoms do not fully manifest until the human reaches maturity. No brain tumor is involved. Brain tumors present differently than schizophrenia.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Now because of this I cannot imagine that his behaviour is instinctive. One of the very basic instincts in dogs is not to hurt pups - no matter what gender they are."//

Lol, note that Buddy's "puppy reaction" is quite different from his other reactions. He takes one step toward the pup, barks, and walks away. Many normal dogs do this same thing to puppies.

He has 4 styles of reactions, his puppy reaction is his mildest. Actually, puppy intolerance is found in many 'normal' dogs. There is a very active member here on DTA, whose very happy, normal, friendly dog, can not tolerate the presence of puppies, and does exact same behavior.

And i've never called Buddy's dog-agression "instinctive"....i think it is inherent. Born that way. Big difference in saying something is born wrong form, from saying it is a breed or species instinct.