Collie Vs Shetland Sheepdog! Choosing?

[Pawbla]

Yeah, but we know there are many aggressive dogs who have learned to be aggressive. The fact that if they can or can't be solved is irrelevant to the fact that they form a percentage of the dogs labeled as "aggressive".

I haven't been able to watch it entirely as it keeps freezing. Maybe because of my laggy connection. It always stops loading halfway :/. I'll have to download it from somewhere I guess.

And you know that's not what I meant. I never said that because it was not tested in a controlled environment it does not exist. Controlled environments are a vital part of research, whether we like it or not. And if we want to learn more, what better way of learning than that of a controlled environment? We can't make those with humans because it's sort of illegal. Maybe I'm a bit over-enthusiastic with science but it'd be amazing if we could do research like that with humans. What I'm saying is that research usually has other goals in mind. It's more of a matter on why and where, and the research you keep mentioning is all about that. I'm not doubting that there are dogs who are genetically dog aggressive or shy. I'm not doubting that dogs who can't be cured, can be labeled as genetically dog aggressive or genetically shy, and that if you do an MRI it will show that they are not normal. I'm just saying there are lots of things that are still unknown, and you can't deny that - otherwise, there'd be no research.

 

[tx_cowgirl]

Let's keep this from becoming heated again, ladies. I genuinely think you are both in this simply for a discussion, not for an arguement, but there seems to be a bit of a communication gap throughout this thread. Just saying. We don't want any new or current members thinking that voicing their opinions will result in getting lashed at, fought with, or belittled. That certainly isn't the goal of this website. I've always felt that DTA is full of open-minded members who are here to learn from each other. Let's keep it that way.
You wouldn't continue to train your dogs after becoming frustrated. If this discussion is beginning to frustrate either of you maybe it's time to take a deep breath and step back for a while. If it's not and you both want to continue this discussion purely for your own educational purposes, by all means I encourage you to do so!! But neither of you are politicians, you aren't here to sling mud. Keep that in mind.

Also, although it is ultimately up to Pawbla as this is her thread, I think it's worth mentioning that Pawbla's original intent of this thread was to learn about two breeds that she is interested in--something all of us would commend her for and wish more dog owners would do.

Anyway....just felt this going in a bad direction again and thought someone should step in. Hope I haven't offended anyone.

 

[tigerlily46514]

i agree with Tx.


Pawbla says
//"I haven't been able to watch it entirely as it keeps freezing."//
A few things to try:
Delete all your "temporary internet files" to increase your computer's memory. If you are very computer savvy, you may also want to delete rarely used programs for same reason.<--DON'T try deleting rarely used programs unless you really know for sure, that you do not need those files.


.
Make sure your flash player, and browser, are updated.

Consider switching to Google chrome as your browser,
OR
consider switching to Firefox as your browser and download the flash player. <---- This worked like a charm for a pal of mine having exact same problem.
good luck!

btw, you CAN download either google chrome, or firefox, WITHOUT deleting your current browser. I have both IE9 and google chrome icons on my desktop,
and i can use either one i choose to. BUT, you will have to make sure, that in your "control panel" that you HAVE enabled the browser you have installed,
and you may want to make the NEW browser the "default" browser.



.
If you are using IE9, that one is pretty old fashioned. Once i downloaded google chrome, my genius stepson said to me, "You are just NOW beginning to use chrome? Welcome to the 21st century!" Prior to upgrading to a superior browser, i had no idea what i'd been missing...

both google chrome, and firefox, are free.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Pawbla, sometimes, if you are having trouble watching a youtube video,
if you RIGHT CLICK on the youtube video as it is playing stalled,
it will offer you some choices, like, "update your adobe flashplayer" and stuff like that. You can then follow those choices by clicking on them.
THAT might also solve the problem. then you would also be free to watch alllllll the other fabulous videos here on DTA.

 

[Evie]

Pawbla, I obviously bought Evie as a puppy. I met her parents; both were extremely friendly towards strangers (me) even though I was playing with their puppies and they were on the other side of the fence. I didn't pick the shy puppy out of the litter... Evie had actually come over to me and was eating my shoe laces.. However, I've still ended up with a shy dog who HATES new people. She has been socialised. She goes nearly everywhere with me so that she's exposed to new things/people, but people can't touch her or she'll snap/bite. She hasn't had any bad experiences, just doesn't like people touching her until she's knows them well. Complete opposite to what her parents were like and she didn't react like that to my partner or me when she was with her family... Just saying... knowing the parents - getting the pick of the litter - certainly doesn't necessarily mean you'll get what you want.


Buutttttt I wouldnt want Evie any other way. <3 my puppy

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yes, Evie, shyness is often a recessive gene, and usually only one or 2 of the litter, not an entire litter.
I know a breeder whose stud dog always produces at least one shy dog, always, although his dog is a friendly, outgoing dog.

Meeting the parents does not always show one what the puppy will be like. The siblings of your Evie may all be 'normal' dogs, so calling previous customers may not always give one the info that there is a possibility of getting a shy dog,
or a dog-aggressive dog. Calling previous customers was suggested by Pawbla, and it IS a great great great idea, but, it might not necessarily uncover the info that one or two puppies of each litter, are either shy dogs, or dog-aggressive dogs.

All the other customers, may report "My dog is outgoing and loves all unknown humans and all unknown dogs", and still, one can end up with a dog personality type that they did not expect.

And the breeders may be completely unaware they are cranking out litters with shy dogs or even dog-aggressive dogs. I can see how a breeder could be completely unaware of this, and tell any customer who asks, "no, we do not have litters with shy dogs, nor dog-aggressive dogs. We are only mating up outgoing, friendly dogs with great temperaments." And the breeders themselves, may be unaware shyness and dog-aggression are a genetic problems....and they might not know much about recessive genes.

Recessive genes are genes which do not manifest in the parents, but can show up in the puppy.

It is not impossible, if Evie called up her breeders to report, her dog turned out to be a shy dog, they'd tell her, "Well, you raised it wrong." .....as most ppl DO believe, if a dog is either shy, or dog-aggressive, it was raised wrong. Most everyone does believe that.

Evie, i hear you, i think my loving a dog with issues,
has taught me way way more
than all of my normal dogs put together. Prior to Buddy, i knew zero about dog language, not really. Lots of things i have learned. I even feel more tuned into this dog, than any previous dog. He needs me, and i need him.

 

[Pawbla]

I am actually quite computer savvy I'm on Arch Linux, running Firefox and Flash up-to-date, but my Internet connection is just AWFUL, and these weeks was worse than usual for some reason. It doesn't help that Flash has always been quite buggy, especially on Linux. That's why maybe it's easier to download than to watch online, since for example with a torrent file you can pause and resume the download as many times as you want.

Evie, that's too bad . When did she start showing shyness signs?

Tigerlily, and he's still breeding the dog?! He should really consider neutering.

Yeah, like I said, no method is foolproof. You can try playing with the odds, but there is always a chance it will go wrong. I guess it really depends on luck there. Or if you want an adult dog you can be certain that it won't be genetic, at least. But my last 5 dogs were adults - I want a puppy now! Even if it won't work for therapy. I still have Winston for therapy (by the way, we've been doing these "getting treats from strangers", he loves it). It's not like I'll end up with no therapy dog . On that topic, I called the Sheltie breeder, we talked and I was more than happy with what she told me. She was pretty much a "by the book" breeder, she was just not very friendly at first because it just seemed like I was some random person who wasn't going to do any research because of the questions I asked (temperament, possible health diseases, etc, things you should know if you're sure about the breed). The only thing that worried me is that she tends to breed dogs when they are sort of... oldish. First time when they're about three and second time, could be anywhere from 5 to 7. Does this increase the risk of shy or DA dogs?

And, I was thinking about the fact that many members here have dogs with "issues". I think that having a dog with issues is a big factor playing when you start becoming interested in behaviour. I was always interested in behaviour but I got serious about learning when I got Hosen because he was uncontrollable. It's like the fact that many biters are pitbulls. It is due to the fact that ***holes who want aggressive dogs choose pitbulls, not because pitbulls are inherently aggressive. Likewise, I bet it's more likely that we found dogs with issues here than on a day-to-day basis. I bet many of us started learning because his/her dog had issues.

 

[Pawbla]

Yessss! It loads! It was time that our connection got fixed xD. At least I could watch part 1. I'll be posting my comments, if any, in the appropriate thread .

 

[Pawbla]

Last bit of spamming:
On the side of the dog buying/adopting, I've reached a conclusion. I am totally in love with a dog I fostered, but I can't adopt her now. She has to wait one or two years until I am able to do so. I can't tie her to that, however, if she is still available for adoption at the time I am able to take another dog, I will definitely go for her. If she's not, I'm buying the sheltie and I'll be either donating the exact same amount I pay for the puppy to a rescue organization, or spending it rescuing dogs myself (which is pretty much the same since I already foster).

 

[tigerlily46514]

Well, Pawbla, if you have your heart set on a sheltie, best of luck to you. I still think Tx's recommendation you groom a few of them prior to getting one is a worthy idea, especially since there are already three dogs in your family, some of whom have not yet been completely taught to walk in a loose-leash way, and are not being walked, but best of luck.

//"It's like the fact that many biters are pitbulls."//
Actually, in my country, the dog who bites most often is the golden retriever, and pitties don't even make the top ten biters.
In defense of golden retrievers, that is the breed most often put by children in my country. The stats do not include info like, "Was this dog being cornered by shrieking children who were pulling his ears?" and stuff like that, it is just statistics only, no background stories are included, just numbers.
Sometimes, some dogs might be driven to bite, as a last resort in a desperate situation, although the dog is otherwise a very friendly dog, yet, they could still be counted in the statistic.

And pitties are NOT "inherently aggressive", most pitties are total lovebugs. The overwhelming majority of pitties make lovely pets.
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/james-mann-a-pit-bull-owner.4251/
But, *SOME* pitties have been bred to have an entirely different bite-inhibition level, and while most breeds will bite a human and stop after the one bite, or even LEAVE,
a few pitties don't stop, and continue to the death.

Pitties are the breed who are responsible for over 60% of dog bite FATALITIES, but these are still, only a teeny tiny percentage of all the pitties. and THAT is where the pitties get the horrible reputation. It's not that pitties "bite a lot of people", cuz they do not.
BUT It's a shame to label the entire breed based on the behavior of a very very few pitties.


//"Yeah, like I said, no method is foolproof."//

i still disagree. If one adopts an adult dog,
who is neither shy, nor dog-aggressive, they are out of the woods. Dogs personality is easy enough to evaluate when they are ADULTS.
One can not create a shy dog out of a normal dog, nor can we 'create' permanently dog-aggressive dog out of a normal dog, not even Michael Vick could do that.
but you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[Pawbla]

Well, Pawbla, if you have your heart set on a sheltie, best of luck to you. I still think Tx's recommendation you groom a few of them prior to getting one is a worthy idea, especially since there are already three dogs in your family, some of whom have not yet been completely taught to walk in a loose-leash way, and are not being walked, but best of luck.

Yeah, but they are not even mine. I mean I am in a weird period of my life where I live with my parents, but I don't live with my parents, if you know what I mean. I do live here... two months a year. The rest of my time I'm in another city, with my own dog, my own pigeon pet, my own house, etc. I've been trying to leash train him since I got here, but I have to revert the fact that, since I left (last year) this place, nobody has taken him out for even a single walk. Now he gets to walk every day, and we've been leash-training since I arrived. But when I leave, situation will revert back. That's why I've been looking forward to a no-pull harness. He just is too excited to go for a calm walk, because he was locked up an entire year. Next year, providing they do take him for a daily walk with the harness, I think it will be easier for me to loose-leash train him.
And yeah, I'll be trying to groom a couple! Maybe I can't get to groom a sheltie since they are not common but maybe I can groom dogs with similar coats. I asked the breeder about the grooming requirements, and it actually seemed better than I thought it would. She says she does a once a week deep brushing, while they are not shedding. I assume that a once a week full brushing complemented with daily grooming would be good? Maybe I'll take some dog grooming classes, if I can find any in my area! I've always wanted to learn how to properly groom a dog, and I have a great excuse now .

//"It's like the fact that many biters are pitbulls."//
Actually, in my country, the dog who bites most often is the golden retriever, and pitties don't even make the top ten biters.
In defense of golden retrievers, that is the breed most often put by children in my country. The stats do not include info like, "Was this dog being cornered by shrieking children who were pulling his ears?" and stuff like that, it is just statistics only, no background stories are included, just numbers.
Sometimes, some dogs might be driven to bite, as a last resort in a desperate situation, although the dog is otherwise a very friendly dog, yet, they could still be counted in the statistic.

And pitties are NOT "inherently aggressive", most pitties are total lovebugs. The overwhelming majority of pitties make lovely pets.
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/james-mann-a-pit-bull-owner.4251/
But, *SOME* pitties have been bred to have an entirely different bite-inhibition level, and while most breeds will bite a human and stop after the one bite, or even LEAVE,
a few pitties don't stop, and continue to the death.

Pitties are the breed who are responsible for over 60% of dog bite FATALITIES, but these are still, only a teeny tiny percentage of all the pitties. and THAT is where the pitties get the horrible reputation. It's not that pitties "bite a lot of people", cuz they do not.
BUT It's a shame to label the entire breed based on the behavior of a very very few pitties.

Whoops! It's true, you are right. They were top-fatality-biters, not top-biters. Sorry, I confused the number!
But, my point still stands: number statistics are not entirely reliable without background information. The owners usually rob them from their mothers at a young age and teach the dog that biting is completely acceptable, but that is a sociological trait from the owner, not a trait inherent to the breed. The same would apply to what you said of Golden Retrievers - they are usually the ones who are dumped with 3 kids who pull their ears and scream and chase the poor dog. "Oh, it's a labrador/golden retriever, he won't bite", that's what they say. That's the beauty of statistics - one has to do a pretty big background check on the figures. Numbers themselves mean nothing.
While I'm not a pittie fan, I know (personally) two pitbulls that are amazingly well socialized and luckily have no genetic behaviour faults. They are a lovely breed.
Also, I adopted two Dobbies a few years ago. Dobbies were as infamous as the poor Pitbulls, and they were seriously the most loving and tolerating dogs I've ever had. And they got such a horrible reputation, because people who wanted aggressive dogs, before the pitties were famous, used to pick Dobbies. Then they moved to Rottwailers, and then Pitbulls. And thanks to this people, breeding and raising pups to be aggressive, these breeds have this horrible reputation. I don't know any Rott, but as far as Dobbies and Pitbulls go, I know they are generally smart, loving dogs.
By the way I think you got the idea I was saying that they were inherently aggressive? I said:

not because pitbulls are inherently aggressive.

And I meant that "[it's] not because of that, because pitties are not inherently aggressive". Just wanted to clear that up .

//"Yeah, like I said, no method is foolproof."//

i still disagree. If one adopts an adult dog,
who is neither shy, nor dog-aggressive, they are out of the woods. Dogs personality is easy enough to evaluate when they are ADULTS.
One can not create a shy dog out of a normal dog, nor can we 'create' permanently dog-aggressive dog out of a normal dog, not even Michael Vick could do that.
but you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

I meant that there is no foolproof method for picking a puppy. Of course you know what you get with an adult, which is one of the reasons I've been picking adults most of my life. I'm actually a fan of adult adopting, but I want a puppy now, for a change. I'll probably go back to adults after that .

 

[tx_cowgirl]

Personally I love love love bully breeds. Rotties, Dobies, and Pits have a soft spot in my heart for sure. ^^ Dobies don't really have a bad rap here, although I think they used to. In my state in particular, an enormous number of unfit dog owners have gotten Pits, and helped create an issue. Also in certain parts of Texas, illegal dog fighting is very big, and the most aggressive Pits are bred to produce even more aggressive Pits. They are selectively bred in those areas to hopefully create a dog that is extremely aggressive. The pups who don't come out aggressive end up as bait dogs usually, and the in-betweens usually have an unsuccessful fighting career and either die in a fight, get put down by the owners, or get lucky and the fighting ring gets shut down and all the dogs are rescued. Anyway, point being that in Texas there are a large number of aggressive Pits, due to either breeding or owners that aren't fit to own any dog, much less a Pit. So, many Texans hate Pits. Such a shame, because they are incredibly lovely dogs.
A trainer friend of mine once had a deaf Pitty who knew over 100 signs. She was her demo dog. People were really impressed with the dog, had their kids loving all over her, then would ask what she was...when she responded that she was a Pit, it was like you'd just told them you had a bomb strapped to you that would go off at any second. They'd grab their children and back away.
Even my parents hate Pits. Most rescues here refuse to even call Pits/Pit mixes Pits for fear of hindering their adoptability. These rescues always label these dogs as "Boxer mixes."
It's ridiculous, really. It's no different than labelling a certain race for murder, theft, rape, or anything else. People don't want to learn about something, they just want to slap a label on it and say that it's so.

Ugh...
Lol sorry for the vent.

 

[Pawbla]

Ah, this guy I know, that has two well socialized pitties, got in trouble with the police because apparently his "aggressive pitt" had bit a little girl. Fact is, the dog is two months old and was playing with a little girl, no biting. And he had the same thing happen with his other, older pitt... when people ask "so what breed is he?", they'll look in horror and drive away their dogs/kids. Sad, really.

 

[harrontrueman]

I implemented two dobbies a few decades ago. Dobbies were as notorious as the inadequate Pitbulls, and they were seriously the most adoring and enduring pets I've ever had. And they got such a awful popularity, because individuals who desired competitive pets, before the pitties were popular, used to choose dobbies.

 

[Pawbla]

I had two dobbies too a few years ago, the only purebred dogs that I've had, first a female, and when she died, a male. One of them (the male) was indeed agressive to dogs but other than that they were fine. They were lovely dogs, and great companions. Especially the male one was a great loss for our family, my mother never grew so close to a dog again after he passed away.