Collie Vs Shetland Sheepdog! Choosing?

[Pawbla]

//"Aggression can't be labeled as "cured" in my opinion because every dog can have setbacks."//
NOt all aggression is unhealthy, not at all, nor a "set back", but instead, some aggression IS a healthy, normal response, from a healthy, normal dog.

Just what I was talking about earlier, haha! But read this afterwards. I meant inappropriate aggression there.

Any dog can become aggressive, if the perfect storm of wrong events happens, true. I try to make it clear, repeatedly, that i am speaking about the persistently, inappropriate aggression that lasts the dog's entire lifetime, despite all attempts to rehab the dog. The persistence of the aggression, is hard to miss. Is no way to mistakenly believe the dog is "cured".
Still, there is MUCH REASON FOR HOPE, such dogs CAN be made better, their aggression levels reduced, much progress can be made.
We can make such dogs better,
or worse,
but we can't create one,
nor can we completely cure a persistently inappropriately aggressive dog.
NOt all shy dogs are aggressive to humans, btw, i think i have made that point, but, in case it was missed.

THANKS for the explanation. So this is what I was missing then, the core difference between the genetic aggression and normal aggression. Okay, I actually read it in the previous post, but like I told you in the message, I have troubles summing up, haha!

 

[Pawbla]

. //"I guess dog-aggressive dogs can do well as far as it's not a therapy group."//

ah, you missed a point, my dog is dog-aggressive, not a shy dog.

Okay, this is definitely my fault. I did understand the story, but I just expressed myself in a wrong way - when I said "Therapy group" I meant a group of 2+ dogs with their respective guides that go together visit a nursing home, hospital, etc.








By the way, I did want to make a remark.

I never, in any place of any post, said that you could get a dog that you knew 100% for sure that it was going to be fine for X area of work/sport. I am a fan of probability and statistics, I must say, but I was all about going with the odds or against the odds, like I NEVER did.
Adopting an adult is really nice, yes - I'm not puppies' greatest fan either - but you also have to go and go through a lot of dogs and tell people "no, sorry, this is not the kind of dog I'm looking for". I hate doing that. I don't search for dogs looking for homes. I usually pick up strays and go in an absolute random thing - that's how I got Hosen, a dog that you can tell really easily he was very abused and poorly socialized, and Winston, who was most likely born in the street and lived all his life there, since he has an excellent socialization - he was just on the shy and scared side, like most dogs that don't have a strong personality, born and raised in the street. I'm pretty sure it was environment created because he got A LOT better in just the first few weeks - he only has this residual fear from strangers and a constant velcro behaviour, because I never tried to change it until now. He was afraid of stairs, holes, people, etc, but got a ton better just by associating positive experiences to them. But still, after two or three weeks of not even counter-conditioning "on purpose", just by walking him, he got way better.
Another thing that was never taken into account in the discussion is that all I was talking about were odds. Like I said, big probability and statistics nerd here. I told everything you could do to make the odds be WITH you, instead of against you. I NEVER said there was no way that following that method, you were going to get a perfect pup. After all, a perfect dog is different for all of us. I never said you could get one with 0 problems, I only said that you could reduce the odds of buying a dog with a "faulty" temperament by extensive kennel research.

By the way, just to let you know, there are three Sheltie breeders in my country: one is way too far, it'd cost... a fortune to get, haha; second one avoided answering half of my questions, in a pretty rude way, so totally out of the business. I am waiting for breeder number three, but I think I've settled on a Collie - I know a breeder that is just perfect for me because he is one of the few that breeds for temperament - so dogs that carry dog-aggression would be very likely to not be in his gene pool. Shy dogs can be told by Campbell's, so... I think I'm going to settle on that. Then if the dog is a couch potato like my Winston or a total crazy sports fan like Hosen, I love both, and can use any of them in therapy. I could use Hosen if he wasn't so scared of loud noises, I haven't found a stimulus low enough (yet) that it doesn't make him afraid.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//" An adult dog CAN develop dog aggression, especially if you get them before he is 2-3 years old, when the personality is not fully developed. "//

Where do you get info on aggressive dogs?
and a dog's personality is usually evident long before his 3rd birthday.

almost always, dog aggression manifests at about 9 mos old. A few ppl report it as early as 7 mos old, a some say 12 mos old. But 9 mos old, is very very veyr common age of onset of dog-aggression.

It is possible, to live a very isolated life, with infrequent contact with unknown dogs, and not become aware of it til later, and some breeds mature at different rates, but by 12 mos old, most DA dogs are at the trainers or vets. but, there are a few scragglers.

In years of studying dog aggression, living with an aggressive dog, and belonging to multiple boards specifically for owners of aggressive dogs, -------------the few stories, of a delayed onset of persistent, inappropriate lifelong aggression in a dog much after 14 mos old, are so exceedingly rare, and odd, and i have never been much able to get many details on this rare and amazing dog, the delayed onset dog-aggressive dog....I've interacted with 100s of owners of aggressive dogs, and you only hear of such an event, in an otherwise healthy dog, about 1 out every couple 100 dogs, it is THAT rare.

I do think it is possible, to have a shy dog, develop aggression to humans, at much later age, if they are now managed in a different way. Not all shy dogs develop aggression, btw.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Well, it has to be a pretty bad luck, picking out the ONLY dog-aggressive dog in the litter, right? "//

My point there is, one can not tell in a puppy. And often, a shy dog, or a DA dog, can be in a litter of normal pups. It is not usually more than a minority of the litter, and yes, you CAN spot the shy dogs in the litter box,
but not the DA dogs.


Bad luck? well, honestly, i have learned more rehabbing Buddy,
than in all my previous dogs put together. I have felt joy at his breakthroughs, that i have never felt with my "normal" dogs.

And i picked him out aggressive, not as a puppy. I took home a lil gangsta dog. And i would not trade him for any other dog.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"An adult dog is not a surefire way to know."//

Unless one is not adept at assessing a dog's personality, in a more complete way than the test you suggested earlier, it IS a pretty surefire way to know,
if a dog is shy (prone to ppl aggression)
or if a dog is dog-aggressive.

but, some ppl may not know how to really evaluate a dog's personality. but a 16 mos old dog, 18 mos for sure, is a sure bet, that IS who the dog IS. Certainly, we can help a dog develop new skills, and help reduce unwanted behaviors, but, he is adult enough to see who he really is.

shyness and dog-aggression are visible much much earlier than 16 mos old.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//" It does happen that an owner does not socialize a dog enough, and it'll develop shyness or aggression"//

NO, that is a myth. Socialization can certainly help any dog, but lack of it does not create either the shy dog,
nor the dog-aggressive dog.

both are neurobiological disorders, in place at birth. We can make either type of dog better,
or worse, but humans can not create a persistently inappropriately aggressive or shy dog.

i want to keep pointing out, there are many levels of shyness, from mild, to severe.

I have multiple research links, from the top veterinary research teams of Cornell, Harvard, Yale, universities and veterinary hospitals and labs all over the globe, isolating the genes that cause the shy dog,
and the genes that cause the dog-aggresive dog. I will post a new thread to post them.
I have TONS of them.


We've all been told, all our lives, by eveyrone, that shyness, or DA dogs,
are "caused"
but, too many horrifically abused, isolated dogs are rescued every day and stand there, loving everyone and every dog.

too many 1000s of dogs, raised by vets, animal behaviorists, committed knowledgable trainers, and their dog begins to manifest dog-aggression at about 9 mos old...against all odds.

Even without all the science links i will put in a new thread on the genes causing shyness, and aggression,
wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many exceptions to the "humans did it" theory.
even common sense
should have set off questions in most dog fans.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"By the way I think it's pretty easy to recognize TRUE fear imprint (I do believe in it) because usually the incident is traumatic for both the dog and the owner. If a dog develops fear (or rather, phobia) caused aggression, being "dogs" the object of his phobias, they show a completely different body language, too. Tail tucked, ears back, paralyzed, shaking... usual sign of PHOBIAS which are supposedly irreversible although they can get a bit better."//

uhm, i think you are describing fearful dog body language.
That is not at all what the dog-aggressive dog looks like when he reacts to an unknown dog. not even close!! YOu are describing a shy dog's reaction to humans being too close, if the shy dog is severe, or any dog who is very extremely afraid of something,



but not a dog-aggressive dog reacting. You've never even seen one, have you?

It's not a phobia, it's a neurobiological disorder. But yes, i do think true phobias CAN be counterconditioned and overcome.
Not sure where YOU are coming up with this plethora of "knowledge" on dog-aggressive dogs??? Please share? did you read a book? Watch a movie? See a blog? hear about it from someone?


//"A dog aggressive dog because of a damaged brain? Well, for starters, I have a feeling they won't show warnings, dunno why. Any ideas on that?"//

Well, a neurobiological and neurochemical inborn disorder, is not quite exactly the same thing, technically, as a damaged brain, but, close enough if those words are easier for you. But the brain is intact and whole.
I am unsure what you mean by warnings being shown. sorry. who won't show warnings?

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"But considering the dog aggression percentages, you have to admit, it'd be reeeeaaaally weird if ALL those dogs had brain damage. I mean, sociopaths and schizophrenics are a really small percentage of the population."//

what percentages????

I do think dog-aggressive dogs, and shy dogs,
are minorities. Far and away, the vast bulk of dogs are "normal" dogs.

and i did not mean to imply that canine neurobiological disorders were identical to humans, but i used that example,
of an inborn but delayed manifest human disorder,
as most ppl do know about that one.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Depends on when they suffered abuse."//

yes, the dog bloggers LOVE to pull that one out. But, it's provabley false, even common sense should enlighten most ppl to compare----------

dogs who are shy,
or dog-aggressive,
and were raised lovingly and suffered no abuse,
yet are dog aggressive or shy anyway, against all odds.

and dogs who lived entire lifetimes of abuse, horrific abuse,
puppy hood, adult, doesn't matter,
still love eveyrone and every dog.

even COMMON sense would or should
make one question the myth of lifelong inappropriate aggression is 'caused" by neglect, improper socialization, abuse, etc etc etc.
It's like the old children's fable, "the emporer's clothes"

even common sense should cause at least one or two heads to pop up, "this abuse as a puppy theory just makes no sense, i saw my dog's whole life", but wait til you see my thread i will psot, it will take me a day or so to get the links all put together,
so you will have to be patient,
with all the links on the physical differences found in the brains and bloodstreams of ALL severely shy dogs,
and the physical differences in the brains and bloodstreams of ALL dog-aggressive dogs,
but
never ever found in 'normal' dogs. In decades of studying this, not one normal dog has ever ever been found to have these abnormalities.


but yeah, sure, abuse causes the brain to have neurobiological anomalies, sure.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Many aggressiveproblems are solved just within 3-4 months - others take longer, but usually it's under a year."//

Adorable, a few weeks of dog training classes and now you know everything about dog aggression!! wow!





no, it is permanent.
You can cure a shy dog of aggression, but not of shyness. the dog will always be shy on some level, for life. Better, but not cured.

//"I got as close as 15 cm to a dog that is aggressive towards some people - kids and young adults, mostly - in one session. "//

.

.Absolutely, one can desensitze a dog to one person at a time! And using proper approach greatly increases your chances of success.....and we can desensitize a dog-aggressive dog to one dog at a time!! but that is not a cure. there are billions of other humans, and other dogs.


.


lol, it was news to me, at first, too,
that getting my dog Buddy to go from wanting kill Fido, to loving Fido,
made no difference to how Buddy felt about the NEXT unknown dog coming along...he just now only liked Fido, but still wanted to kill Max.
*sigh*


NOt all shy dogs are aggressive, they are born shy, not aggressive, and there is much reason to hope for huge improvements, even removal of aggression in SHY dogs.

but,
i can't WAIT to hear you begin work with your first dog-aggressive dog. I mean a true DA dog, who loves humans, but hates dogs. Not a shy dog with spillover aggression onto dogs, but a true DA dog.

i know you have not even seen one yet, as your earlier description of a dog-aggressive dog reacting to another dog was off by miles. and miles.

we can make amazing improvements in a short period of time, but, of all the 100s and 100s of DA dog owners i know, i'm trying to picture, if i have ever ever ever heard of any owner who now claimed their DA dog is "cured" . .........hmm. I can not think of this person yet.
it is SO HARD TO CURE, dog-aggression, and severe shyness-aggression,
that it is the #1 reason dogs are euthanized by their owners in my country,
more than cancer
more than car accidents,
more than pain,
the #1 reasons owners have their dogs euthanized
is UNCURABLE aggression. But, maybe they just haven't met you yet.

Many on the dog-aggression boards think my Buddy is doing way better than most da dogs do, but, i do not say he is cured. He is USUALLY well controlled like a diabetic,
but he is still dog aggressive. Not always reactive, but he is still a gangsta at heart. He's come a long way, and some of the things, i learned the hard way.





but, i was once like you, i once thought, dog-aggression is "curable" with proper therapy.

 

[Pawbla]

Lol! Please read more carefully, you keep twisting my words.

//" An adult dog CAN develop dog aggression, especially if you get them before he is 2-3 years old, when the personality is not fully developed. "//

Where do you get info on aggressive dogs?
and a dog's personality is usually evident long before his 3rd birthday.

Well, you don't believe in personality shaping, but as far as I've read, that's more or less the top limit. And no, I wasn't getting the clear distinction between the genetically caused and the normally caused aggression, that's basically what I was talking about. That's a wrong on mine, sorry .

My point there is, one can not tell in a puppy. And often, a shy dog, or a DA dog, can be in a litter of normal pups. It is not usually more than a minority of the litter, and yes, you CAN spot the shy dogs in the litter box,
but not the DA dogs.

Bad luck? well, honestly, i have learned more rehabbing Buddy,
than in all my previous dogs put together. I have felt joy at his breakthroughs, that i have never felt with my "normal" dogs.

And i picked him out aggressive, not as a puppy. I took home a lil gangsta dog. And i would not trade him for any other dog.

That's why I said, everybody's perfect dog is different . I totally believe you when you said you wouldn't. I wouldn't trade mine, not for all the gold in the world, not for any other dog, and he has his faults too.
I know no-one can tell in a puppy. I accepted that premise back in the first messages.

//" It does happen that an owner does not socialize a dog enough, and it'll develop shyness or aggression"//

NO, that is a myth. Socialization can certainly help any dog, but lack of it does not create either the shy dog,
nor the dog-aggressive dog.

both are neurobiological disorders, in place at birth.

[...]
too many 1000s of dogs, raised by vets, animal behaviorists, committed knowledgable trainers, and their dog begins to manifest dog-aggression at about 9 mos old...against all odds.

//"An adult dog is not a surefire way to know."//

Unless one is not adept at assessing a dog's personality, in a more complete way than the test you suggested earlier, it IS a pretty surefire way to know,

[...]
shyness and dog-aggression are visible much much earlier than 16 mos old.

Again, those posts waere back from when I didn't had the clear distinction (in symptoms and in speaking, as I though you only sorta believed in genetically caused DA) between a genetically caused aggression and a human caused aggression, and human-caused shyness and genetically caused shyness.
Really, we should name then HDA for human-caused agression, GDA for genetically-caused aggression, HShy for human-caused shyness, and GShy for genetically caused shyness, because we are both making one hell of a mess because we are only mixing names! Haha!

//"By the way I think it's pretty easy to recognize TRUE fear imprint (I do believe in it) because usually the incident is traumatic for both the dog and the owner. If a dog develops fear (or rather, phobia) caused aggression, being "dogs" the object of his phobias, they show a completely different body language, too. Tail tucked, ears back, paralyzed, shaking... usual sign of PHOBIAS which are supposedly irreversible although they can get a bit better."//


uhm, i think you are describing fearful dog body language.

ANNND this is where you twisted everything! Haha!
Yes, I was describing a phobia, like I said more than once. Usually when the you have a traumatic event in the sensitive period (namely, "a dog attacked my puppy, he ended up in intensive care for a week"), you end up with a phobia, which I know has nothing to do with GDA. I was just saying you were right in saying that it was just plain stupid that "a dog glared at me" caused what was more likely GDA.

Not sure where YOU are coming up with this plethora of "knowledge" on dog-aggressive dogs??? Please share? did you read a book? Watch a movie? See a blog? hear about it from someone?

Like I said, you are speaking about one thing and I am speaking about a totally different thing. I spoke about human-created dog aggression (which can be caused by a number of things in any point of life) and phobias, which are the most common outcome of a truly traumatic event in the sensitive period. I hardly even mentioned the genetical dog aggression, only for asking questions about how to differentiate one from another.

Well, a neurobiological and neurochemical inborn disorder, is not quite exactly the same thing, technically, as a damaged brain, but, close enough if those words are easier for you. But the brain is intact and whole.

I do get the difference, I'm only used to speaking in human-understandable terms, as it's much easier for speaking to people who know nothing about biologyor dogs or anything. Neurochemical issues are usually associated with lack of receptors, or lack of production. Like genetically caused depression.

I am unsure what you mean by warnings being shown. sorry. who won't show warnings?

I've never seen a GDA - at least not to my knowledge. That's what I'm asking. Do those dogs show warnings before attacking another dog? My first intuitive guess would be a no. But like I said, I've never seen one, as far as I know.

I do think dog-aggressive dogs, and shy dogs,
are minorities. Far and away, the vast bulk of dogs are "normal" dogs.

But the thing is that you keep mentioning it as it was the ONLY kind of dog aggression. Even if I mentioned what I said was CLEARLY human-caused, you STILL supposed I was talking about genetically-caused aggression. Well, even when I clearly mentioned the word PHOBIA, caps included, like 3-4 times in a 3-sentence (or sth like that) paragraph, you STILL assumed I was talking about genetically caused dog aggression. That's what made me thinking that's the only kind of dog aggression you sort of believed in, or at least you thought it was the most predominant.

and i did not mean to imply that canine neurobiological disorders were identical to humans, but i used that example,
of an inborn but delayed manifest human disorder,
as most ppl do know about that one.

Yeah I didn't meant to say it was exactly like it either. I meant that I hardly doubt that they are a majority, because the species would be doomed.

 

[tigerlily46514]

I'm skipping several remarks that i can not make heads or tails of, and sort of losing my place on this thread, as you are posting at such a fast rate, i am now losing m place.

I will play with this today, then we will probably have to stop, as the point of this site is dog tricks. But there are many websites, which would most vehemently agree with you, on many of your points, and i'm sure, there are some here who agree, that abuse is cause of permanent lifelong inappropriate aggression in dogs, and shyness in dogs.

I worry about annoying the mods here, or the admins, by posting off topic way too much, but, i will for today.

//"yes - I'm not puppies' greatest fan either - but you also have to go and go through a lot of dogs and tell people "no, sorry, this is not the kind of dog I'm looking for". //

oh, in my country, we can look at the dogs, without even saying any such thing, we just pass them by. we have many websites to narrow one's search of all the homeless dogs.
some ppl are far more fussy, some ppl just go by looks or a breed,
i do not think it is hard to find a good dog.

i don't.
you go on about odds, any number of times, but the remark i originally replied to,
were remarks like THIS:

//" If you add that with a correct socialisation, there is no reason any dog can't be a therapy dog"//
//'And temperament can and will be changed."//


.


LOLZ, nah, if you take home a shy puppy or shy dog, that dog is never ever going to love crowds of strangers. Yes, you probably can get the dog to tolerate the unknown ppl, if they don not touch him,
but the dog will be miserable, as he is an inherently shy dog.
nothing mentioned about odds or chances, you said it definitively, and with authority, as if you knew all about ALL kinds of dogs.
but i could tell when you said that, you didn't know much about shy dogs, or dog-aggressive dogs either.

 

[Pawbla]

//"Many aggressiveproblems are solved just within 3-4 months - others take longer, but usually it's under a year."//

Adorable, a few weeks of dog training classes and now you know everything about dog aggression!! wow!

Like I said, you keep twisting my words, now I'm sorta wondering if you're doing it on purpose, lol, because I clearly implied that I was talking about human-created HUMAN aggression. I was talking about aggression to humans, seriously, how can you mistake that one?

Full quote is:

If a dog DOES have a "normal" dog brain,
and is abused, neglected/whatever
to become aggressive,
those dogs are usually readily rehabbed back to their default, "normal" brained behavior pretty easily,
as opposed to those of us with truly innately aggressive dogs, working for YEARS, for the dog's entire lifetime, trying everything we can find, to just REDUCE the aggression. It's a marked difference in the rehab.

Michael Vick was a famous person in USA, who was arrested for having a horrifically abusive dog fighting ring, and 95% of his dogs all rehabbed back beautifully to normal-brained behavior, despite a horrible lifelong abusive past.

[...] (quote keeps going but is unrelated)

Fully agree there. Many aggressiveproblems are solved just within 3-4 months - others take longer, but usually it's under a year. I got as close as 15 cm to a dog that is aggressive towards some people - kids and young adults, mostly - in one session.
I'd love it if we had the possibility of doing MRI scans and PET scans to our dogs. It'd be pretty amazing, we could get much faster diagnosis.

 

[Pawbla]

you go on about odds, any number of times, but the remark i originally replied to,
were remarks like THIS:

//" If you add that with a correct socialisation, there is no reason any dog can't be a therapy dog"//
//'And temperament can and will be changed."//
[...]

but i could tell when you said that, you didn't know much about shy dogs, or dog-aggressive dogs either.

And I didn't really think of genetically shy dogs or genetically dog-aggressive dogs but I did know they existed. More like "existed" since you AREN'T supposed to treat those as a dog trainer, you are supposed to refer them to a veterinarian to see if the chemical imbalance can be fixed, and, in any case, work with a previous veterinary diagnosis. I just assumed that any GOOD breeder would rule a genetically dog-aggressive dog carrier out of their breeding program.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//" - I know a breeder that is just perfect for me because he is one of the few that breeds for temperament - so dogs that carry dog-aggression would be very likely to not be in his gene pool"//

It'd be real easy for a breeder to remain unaware they are cranking out dog-aggressive dogs, as it doesn't show up til about 9 mos old, and the owners think it is "something they did wrong" so they would not know to report it to the breeder,
cuz so far as the vast bulk of humans know, they raised the dog incorrectly. Even if they did report it, the breeder would also think, "those owners raised it wrong".

Few ppl are yet aware, shyness, and dog-aggression, are genetic. So far as most humans know, it's the owner's fault, etc.

An adult dog over 14 to 16 mos old, IS a sure bet, but, then again, shy dogs are DA dogs are minorities. And even if you got one, you would learn TONS. Teaching agility to a dog, is piece of cake,
next to teaching the dog to go against his own overwhelming neurobiology.
now THAT'S a trick!!! ha ha


I think you might be wise to take Tx's advice, and groom one a few times prior to choosing one. or maybe you might want to invest time into the 3 dogs in your family,s o they can go for walks, or learn some tricks, instead of adding a 4th dog to the family, but, it's up to you!!
I love dogs too.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Like I said, you keep twisting my words, now I'm sorta wondering if you're doing it on purpose, lol, because I clearly implied that I was talking about human-created HUMAN aggression"//

yes, you are obviously describing a ppl-aggresssive or shy dog, and i point that out.
a few times. I am shocked you'd accuse me of that, and then take a snippet part of my reply out of context. If one reads the next lines and paragraph, that IS the point i am making, is the difference in your efforts to approach a shy dog,
and rehabbing a da dog, away from aggression.



.

Take a deep slow breath,
and read what i wrote, I state you were working with a shy dog, not a DA dog.


I thought by now, you had absorbed the info, that shy dogs ARE human aggresssive,
and DA dogs are dog-aggressive.

Certainly if poorly managed, or severe cases, the shy dog can also agress to dogs,
and the DA dog can also aggress to humans,
but those are NOT their primary targets.

Most ppl, upon meeting a shy dog, cry, "It's been abused! Look at it duck away from my hand!!"
but, it is just a shy dog. If you meet them as adults, they always appear to have been abused, it's heartbreaking.
Most abused dogs still adore humans, and love them.

i suspect you are speed reading my replies. I am not twisting your words. I will end soon, though if you are going heated on me, or begin to accuse me as a person of stuff, i'm outa here. I thought we were staying rational, and discussing ideas,
but if you are going defensive, or aggressive, i will leave thread.

 

[Pawbla]

//" - I know a breeder that is just perfect for me because he is one of the few that breeds for temperament - so dogs that carry dog-aggression would be very likely to not be in his gene pool"//

It'd be real easy for a breeder to remain unaware they are cranking out dog-aggressive dogs, as it doesn't show up til about 9 mos old, and the owners think it is "something they did wrong" so they would not know to report it to the breeder,
cuz so far as the vast bulk of humans know, they raised the dog incorrectly. Even if they did report it, the breeder would also think, "those owners raised it wrong".

Few ppl are yet aware, shyness, and dog-aggression, are genetic. So far as most humans know, it's the owner's fault, etc

Sometimes, but not always. I am talking about a breeder who specializes in temperament breeding. If it was me, I'd check at least.

An adult dog over 14 to 16 mos old, IS a sure bet, but, then again, shy dogs are DA dogs are minorities. And even if you got one, you would learn TONS. Teaching agility to a dog, is piece of cake,
next to teaching the dog to go against his own overwhelming neurobiology.
now THAT'S a trick!!! ha ha

Like I said, never even seen one, as far as I know.

I think you might be wise to take Tx's advice, and groom one a few times prior to choosing one. or maybe you might want to invest time into the 3 dogs in your family,s o they can go for walks, or learn some tricks, instead of adding a 4th dog to the family, but, it's up to you!!
I love dogs too.

I only live with one of those three dogs. The other two are family pets - not exclusively mine. I live on my own in a different city. If I could, I'd dedicate my time to them rather than getting another dog - but as I said, we live in different cities. I'm only here for holidays. Came in November and I'm going back in a month, and these are the longest vacations I'll ever get again. I only had these looong vacations because I dropped vet. I've been dedicating to the three dogs since I arrived, but I'm not allowed to take them with me, since they are the family pets. Believe me, I would if I could!

Yeah I know a few people with collies so I'm going to ask to groom them for a week or something (at least) to check the general grooming rhythm. But like I said, I actually like grooming. I groom my dog even if he needs no grooming at all.

Thanks for the insight on everything.

 

[Pawbla]

yes, you are, and i point that out.
a few times. I am shocked you'd accuse me of that, and take part of my reply out of context. Take a deep slow breath,
and read what i wrote, I state you were working with a shy dog, not a DA dog.

But it's not a shy dog. She just has a normal, children and young adults aggression. She's not a shy dog at all. That's basically the point I'm making. You said normal aggressions had far easier fixes, and I'm supporting that with what I said. Like you said,

If one reads the next lines and paragraph, that IS the point i am making, is the difference in your efforts to approach a shy dog,
and rehabbing a da dog, away from aggression.

But I never said it was either shy or DA.

And I'm not accusing, I'm sort of wondering, but right now with you post you gave me a different idea of what has been happening.

I thought by now, you had absorbed the info, that shy dogs ARE human aggresssive,
and DA dogs are dog-aggressive.

You said that shy dogs aren't ALWAYS human-aggressive though. But yeah, I got that.

i suspect you are speed reading my replies. I am not twisting your words. I will end soon, though if you are going heated on me, or begin to accuse me as a person of stuff, i'm outa here. I thought we were staying rational, and discussing ideas,
but if you are going defensive, or aggressive, i will leave thread.

First of all I've been trying to soften every response I wrote, with funny comments, recognizing part of what you say is right, etc, but...
Leave the thread if you will, but I believe you were the one speed reading my responses. I mean, it was pretty obvious in many cases I was talking about normal human created aggression, phobias, or whatever, and I even asked a good number of questions which you ignored - I assumed you just didn't want to change the topic, that, while it's possible, it's also possible that you were just speed reading.
And, by the way, I'm not going defensive, you're sort of ridiculing me by twisting my words, saying I don't know stuff when I'm talking about a completely different matter, I DON'T KNOW if you're doing it on purpose or not, I really hope that you are just speed reading and not doing it on purpose because you do seem really nice, but I really don't like having my words twisted, sorry, it's by far one of the top things in my scale of "awful things you can do to me". You know, like getting a shy dog in a crowd of unknown people? Yeah, like that.
And, on speed-reading, you can see I answered most of your posts paragraph by paragraph, in context (except a few times where I hadn't expressed myself correctly and thus the response was about something different that what I was saying), but you picked just a handful of unorganized sentences and elaborated on that. I'm not saying you did speed-read, maybe you like answering in a different fashion, dunno, but I'm saying it's not me the clues are pointing at, in any case, if anybody is speed reading. Sorry if you find this last bit offensive but it's sorta true, nothing I can do to soften that fact.

 

[tigerlily46514]

I am way behind, but, yes, like i mentioned, either on this thread, or another, i am skipping part and questions i had no idea what you were referring to at all.
I dislike your tone very much, but i will try to clear up a few things. And adding "HA HA" is not "softening" at all, nor is it being interpretted by me, anyway, as an attempt of levity.

//"ANNND this is where you twisted everything! Haha!"//
you wrote that, when i said you were describing fearful dog body language, and i still think you did describe fearful dog body language. I stand by my reply, and do not think saying you are describing fearful dog language, is "twisting" anything, i think my remark is a fact.

Any dog language book or list would agree, it IS fearful dog body language, so how is that such a "ha ha" error where i am "twisting" your words?? wha?

Your own addition, of adding your idea it the dog has a phobia, or the display itself is a phobia(?)
in no way negates my point you are describing fearful dog body language.
the phobia part is your interpretation.

everyone who meets an adult shy dogs, cries out, "Oh look! this dog must have been abused!"
even if the worst thing the dog ever suffered was having to wait for his cookie.

Most ppl do think dogs who regularly display fearful dog body language persistently at the presence of unknown humans,------- as having suffered some psychological insult,
but i disagree,
and so do all the veterinary researchers from all over the globe, for decades.

Lifelong shyness requires abnormal neurobiogy to persist for life, past all attempts to rehab the dog.
ONe can make the shy dog BETTER, but it will always be shy, for life, on some level.
We can not cure nor cause, abnormal neurobiology and abnormal neurochemistry to persist as a baseline in the dog.

and there's TONS of cases,
where exactly such a shy dog, with the fearful dog body language you describe as "a phobia",
are known by the owners to have been properly socialized, well raised, right alongside their other dogs, and all their other dogs turned out fine, but one of their dogs is shy, but no abuse occurred.
If this posturing persists for life, and is uncurable, it has neurobiology keeping it going.


still, like i said wayyyyyyy back in reply #16, most humans,
being taught all their lives,
that abuse causes this abnormal dog behavior,
so most humans WILL come up with "The Reason"
the event that "caused" the dog to be shy for life, and the humans will tell you, as you meet the dog, "Well, this dog acts like this, because i had too many children over all at the same time" or whatever "story" they give as "The Reason". It is not impossible, that "The Reason" you were told, was a human's attempt to spot the event that "caused" that dog to be shy.

Your own belief that the dog was not a shy dog, does not convince me.

again, there are levels of shyness, from mild to severe, and not all shy dogs ARE aggressive. If handled and managed very well, often the mildy shy dog can live it's whole life, and never bite a human.

 

[tigerlily46514]

YES!! DA DOG DO INDEED GIVE WARNINGS!!!

Very elaborate, ongoing, frightening displays, it is a dance. They are hard to miss. Even my dog, at his worst stages, still gave some form of warning prior to his attack, he never just ran directly up and attacked, there is a crouching, hackle-raising, eye hardening, growling, posturing, ears shift, fur stands up, MUCH warning is given. It can happen rapidly, at times, but more often, it is like a dance, a slower gradual thing which intensifies and speeds up as the distance closes.


It's true, occasionally some dogs do snap and go off onto each other, but, even then, if we had it on film, we could slow it down, and see what happened. but most of the time, there is much warning.


as do most shy dogs, unless they have been corrected for growling, the shy dog prefers to growl more than bite. But, sadly, most humans "correct" the growl, or scold the growl.
then you are left with a dog who has learned to skip his warning growl...
Scolding a growl will not make a dog "nice"
it only makes them "silent".
Do read Reply #5, (or 7th step)on growling,
on this thread:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/7-things-that-helped-my-dog-aggressive-dog.4413/