Go To Your Mat/place

[orpheum]

You don't seem to have a free shapers brain, because you are prompting your opinion (couldn't resist this reaction)

My "commonly accepted view" is formed during workshops with well known international trainers. And I'm not the person to just follow an opinion, I think it over. I always bring a long "my scrapbook", what I believe in I put in there. What I don't believe or can't use I throw away or put it in the back of my book.

But maybe you're not aware of the mix of methods you are using.
100 repetitions is quite normal in luring as I know it (when the brain is "stopped", just to get the muscle memory going). I think we both are talking about a different way of luring.

As long as it works for your dog ... I'm happy for you. And I still have a lot to learn.

OH, YOU LIKE ME ???
Now I'm going to bed. Day will start early tomorrow.

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

Thank you all; it is starting to become a little bit clearer.

I think a significant barrier for me is that I am impatient and I have a very hard time not only slowing down and building upon small increments; but even thinking in terms of and seeing small increments.

Another challenge is that (and I feel like I'm making excuses) but V. isn't a dog that seems to take naturally to free shaping either...which I think fuels my frustration. But maybe that is because I didn't free shape her early on. However I do remember a few half hearted attempts of 101 things to do with a box; and V. just sort of standing there and staring at me. Eventually if I don't tell her anything she will just lie down or walk away. So perhaps it is because I am missing the small nuances and I don't make it initially interesting and interactive enough. But I swear to me she looks exactly like a dog standing there doing nothing but looking at me and getting frustrated that I'm not telling her what to do. As a team we are really the worst free shapers EVER. I did have a trainer try to help us with it once and her feedback was that V. wasn't comfortable offering behaviors and that she likes it when I "tell her what to do"...

I am certain however that improved skills on my part could change that. Is it too late to teach a 6 year old dog new tricks as far as how to think differently and more independently?

And Orpheum - can I come take classes with you?

 

[orpheum]

I believe this is microshaping skills with targettraining.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//You don't seem to have a free shapers brain, because you are prompting your opinion//

nah, i think NOT having the same opinion as everyone else, might indicate there IS some "thinking" and evaluating by one's own self going on. It is just an opinion that a dog "isn't thinking" if lured.

//My "commonly accepted view" is formed during workshops with well known international trainers.//
of course it was!!!!!!!! i have no doubt whatsoever you have been told this, by multiple ppl, even top trainers, no doubt in my mind this is true. I have been told this, as well, tons of times. I just don't agree with this notion. at all.



//But maybe you're not aware of the mix of methods you are using.//

oh, no, not at all, i've often said, i use them all, and some, i am not even sure what method it is!!
I do use freeshaping, but, i just simply disagree with the vast bulk of ppl who all repeat "lured dogs dont' think". that's all.

//100 repetitions is quite normal in luring as I know it//

wow, even a quick peruse of the tons of videos on DTA, would reveal dogs "getting it" in way way less than 100 repetitions!!!!!!!!!!! My dog gets it in way way less than 100 repetions. If i ever ever had a trick that took 100 repetitions, i'd be posting "HELP!" here on DTA.
(well, i do think that "cross paws" took over 100 repetitions, but, that is not the norm for my dog anyway, and several of us all teaching that trick together, all seemed to think it was a hard trick.

//OH, YOU LIKE ME ??? //

YES!! YES, i do!! very much!! I know, some ppl, if you disagree with them on a remark, they can be kinda cool to you , etc, or whatever, but, not me, i'm not like that. at all!! I don't even fully understand how a person can get honked off/ignore a person, just cuz that person disagreed with some idea they've been taught by others.

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

Hope you understand my interpretation of the English language

Your interpretation of the English language is better than that of many people who were born speaking it as their native tongue!!

I really appreciate your taking the time to outline what I could have done differently...it makes sense. Thank you!

 

[tigerlily46514]

//But maybe that is because I didn't fee shape her early on. //

my dog was an adult, and never knew a single trick (wasn't even potty trained).
Still, he got free shaping, i don't think age is a factor. And by the time i'd tried free-shaping, he'd be mostly lured/captured, etc for a long time prior to trying free shaping.

//Is it too late to teach a 6 year old dog new tricks as far as how to think differently and more idependently?//

my vote is NO! i say you CAN do it!!

 

[orpheum]

Belgium ... Seems a bit far no ??
The jack russell in my clip was adopted at the age of 4,5 years and now he's really good at shaping games. All my dogs had previously no experiences with free shaping untill the age of 4. I didn't even know it excisted

And yes, in the beginning some dogs just stand there. I have one dog where I needed to build up from eye movement to going to an object. Makes it harder, but it is possible. My hunting dog I had to learn to slow down because she was throwing all kinds of behaviour instead of thinking about what she needed to do.

 

[tigerlily46514]

so there's no way to free shape a "cross paws" trick then, right?

oh, and what is "mircoshaping"?

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

100 reps to get the trick? I'd give up, and try another way if my dog didn't get it after a few reps, or, somewhere far far less than 100 reps!
nope, Buddy has learned some tricks in one (1)lesson, even with luring. It's unusual for him to take very long on most tricks.

I am so so jealous! It takes Veronica for-ever to learn things! She can get it reasonably quick if it's something I can lure with a hand signal; but then to fade out the hand signal and attach it solely to a verbal command...aiyeee...oh it's painful! I swear it must be close to 100 repetitions!!




and lol, after decades of working in E.R or ICU, i don't see having one remark, being disagreed with, as anywhere near being "killed". I can disagree with a remark, and like a person. Not everyone seems capable of that, but, i am! We can agree to disagree! Most of everyone does repeat the words, over and over--------- "lured" dogs don't "think"
which i still think is not "true". nope.
and yes, it's probably getting off topic, but, if someone else pops by and wants to comment if Veronica is freeshaping or not, they sure can!! Nothing stopping them!

I've just been meaning to comment since I've been on this site I immediately noticed and was so impressed with the way you are all so easily able to respectfully disagree with each other, have, share and discuss different opinions in a way that is educational and again respectful of each member and their opinions. I am used to the pit bull forums where many times the prevailing sentiment seems to be "you need to have a thick skin to own one of these dogs"; so therfore that becomes justification to engage in verbal sparring that at times gets so ugly threads have to be deleted and members banned. It's quite nice here.

and besides, if i can get even a few ppl to possibly just reconsider what they are saying when they all repeat that ol dusty line about "lured dogs don't think" line over
and over
and over,
it was not a waste of time! i am not against challenging commonly accepted views at all....sometimes, i see questioning stuff, even stuff we hear over.......and over...... as a "good" thing!!
(maybe i have a free-shaper's brain? )

Perhaps whether or not lured dogs think depends upon the dog and the circumstances...

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

Belgium ... Seems a bit far no ??
The jack russell in my clip was adopted at the age of 4,5 years and now he's really good at shaping games. All my dogs had previously no experiences with free shaping untill the age of 4. I didn't even know it excisted

I've seen In Bruges Gorgeous place to live; I would love to visit! Perhaps an extended vacation and a crash course?

And yes, in the beginning some dogs just stand there. I have one dog where I needed to build up from eye movement to going to an object. Makes it harder, but it is possible. My hunting dog I had to learn to slow down because she was throwing all kinds of behaviour instead of thinking about what she needed to do.

Thank you! That is a very encouraging statement; because it validates some of my perceived difficulty but holds out the promise of hope!

 

[tigerlily46514]

// but then to fade out the hand signal and attach it solely to a verbal command...aiyeee...oh it's painful! I swear it must be close to 100 repetitions!! //

OH, that'd be so frustrating.
NO way my dog needs 100 repetitions! and i don't think this is just *my* dog!! I think most dogs "get it" way faster than 100 tries. Even just watching other's videos, their dogs are "getting it" on second lesson, or sometimes, first lesson! Such videos are all over DTA, so, i'm not making this up.

(well, except for cross paws, and shake head no was hard, as well----oh, those were hard hard hard for me!) But most all his other tricks, he got very quickly!
I will count how many reps he needs to "get it". Last night, he got "paddy cake" in one (1) lesson. A few days ago, he got another trick in two (2) lessons. (Buddy's lessons are usually only 5 to 10 minutes long)

you know, one thing i do wrong, that all experts say never to do, is, i do introduce the verbal cue in from first lesson on. I Know, i know, everyone says "never do that"
but, my dog is so accustomed to this,
that when i try to do it like everyone else does, (not saying anything til dog knows trick very well)
my dog has more trouble, and takes longer to "get it" and seems baffled by the silent lessons**.

**of course, it could be, my dog is just messed up by years of always being told name of trick from first lesson on.

 

[orpheum]

I live in a place with a far less historical beauty than Bruges
Maybe we can work something out via internet. I've done this once before.
Look up Susan Garrett, she's a well respected American trainer in shaping and extremely good.

There will be a way to shape the behaviour of crossing paws with free shaping and the clip shown above is not using luring
Microshaping would be a new term for good shaping techniques to teach complexer tricks with "errorless learning". Just new words to sound intelligent and refreshing

 

[running_dog]

@Tigerlily I'll try totally free shaping cross paws, Zac hasn't fathomed the other methods (maybe because I never really saw the point of this trick myself ) so it is worth a try and he is getting better at just offering behaviours when there is no object. I don't actually think there is any physical/mental reason why it shouldn't be done that way by building up in small increments of paw movements (which he does offer if I just sit and look at him holding a clicker). As for shake head no tried luring and targetting but now I am using a combination of capturing (just sideways eye movements at first) shaping (to get a head turn) and luring (rewarding on the opposite side to which he turned his head in the first place) but I only remember to train that about twice a month .

@Jazzy&Veronica - it is really hard to shape at first, it is best to start out with an interesting new object (only put the object on the floor when you are ready to start otherwise you waste the opportunity to click the dog's first glance) and with no end in view and try to keep those clicks coming every 3-5 seconds, my dog would fall asleep so I click and throw the treat across the room to keep him active and involved. Zac didn't start shaping until he was about 5 years old and we had to work through all you have experienced and more, we made mistakes, but it was worth it, there is a good description of how to shape a trick in the Sue Ailsby training levels level 3 (she uses a lot of luring and reps which Zac won't follow but I pick and mix from different trainers/philosophies) I found the description and the problem solving on this one very useful. I am sure you are right that some dogs are better at thinking than others and I think it is the dogs that don't naturally bend their thoughts to learn tricks (like Zac and Veronica) that can benefit most from shaping.

 

[running_dog]

Oh and before I started shaping with a clicker it easily took my dog 1000 lured reps to learn to spin once he was a thinking dog (after I introduced the clicker and shaping) it took him a few occasional lured lessons to learn to spin the other way on cue . The difference was that he had learned to apply his brain to learning, or engage with the lesson. The luring METHOD does not encourage thinking but a dog that is keen to learn will be trying to learn whatever the method. Zac wasn't trying to learn spin he was trying to learn turn .

In schools with people they have what they call "active learning", one of my family once went on a course promotng active learning. They saw a shaping dog and a lured dog presented with a problem to solve, and they saw "active learning" children and children that had only been drip fed information (didactic teaching) presented with a problem .

 

[tigerlily46514]

good points by all, but, i do not agree with the opinion that lured dogs are not "thinking".
but, i do think free-shaping IS fun to do! I think, with practice, dogs can be helped to enjoy either luring, or free-shaping! OR capturing, or plain shaping, or target-luring, etc etc etc,or, stuff i am not sure what it IS called. (i use methods that i am not entirely certain which type it is, perhaps "mixes" of more than one kind?)
I think it's both fun, and helpful, for dogs to be able to do multiple types of methods, keeps things fresh, imo.
(i've heard trainers say their dog can't be lured, but, i still have doubts, and i've heard trainers say, their dog can't be free-shaped, but, i have doubts. some dogs may need extra help to "get the hang of it" with one method, or another, though).

and like RunningDog and Orpheum say, it probably doesn't really matter what the method is called, so long as dog is having fun/not stressed, while learning the trick. I so agree!!


I'd so enjoy seeing a free-shaped lesson of "cross paws" (the multiple crossing of paws, back and forth). Near as i can tell the dog in the "cross paws" video was targeting an item, which to me, IS a form of luring, as the dog is being lured to follow a target item. But, some ppl do not see targeting as luring, but, to me, i don't see a big difference between a dog who follows a stick or item, and a dog who follows a bit of cheese. It's seems a lot the same to me anyway. Neither dog is "inventing" the trick, but instead, is being lured into a trick that the owner thought up.

 

[tigerlily46514]

i wonder, i wonder, if dogs who are very creative with toy play, might be faster at getting the hang of free-shaping? no idea, just wondering.

 

[tigerlily46514]

also, with free-shaping, how many reps is considered "normal" til dog can do behavior on cue?

 

[tigerlily46514]

// @Tigerlily I'll try totally free shaping cross paws, Zac hasn't fathomed the other methods (maybe because I never really saw the point of this trick myself )//


I hear you there, but, i love tricks training, for the learning and interaction in and of itself. It's hard to find a trick that is truly challenging for my dog, but, that one sure was a challenge!! which IS eggggggggzactly why i persisted til he got it!! why do they climb the mountain? because it's there, kinda thing.

My particular weird dog HAS TO have lessons, on something/anything, OR he gets a little nutty if he doesn't get some chances to use his mind.
At times, i do find myself scrapping around for new ideas, so i come to DogTRICKSacademy to get more and more and more ideas, for, what can i teach Buddy to do now....

I will admit, i've taught my dog some weird and useless, "pointless" tricks, indeed i have!! BUT IT WAS FUN!! and it kept my "can't-be-bored" dog busy for an afternoon, and i feel it increases his focus on me, makes him more content, he feels "proud" when he "wins", it makes me laugh, my dog loves it when i laugh, i learn things about my own self while teaching a dog things, i understand my dog's personality even better as i watch him working on something, it increases my dog ability to focus amidst distractions, it seems to make him calmer cuz he "did something",
just lots
and lots of benefits, imo.

I myself call things like "stay" and "drop it", i call those kind of things cues, which obviously cues DO have "a point", as they can increase safety or dog/human harmony.

but Most tricks don't have much functional use, come to think of it. What is "the point" of rollover, or spin, or leg weaves? Probably not "necessary" at all for a dog to learn tricks, to live harmoniously with the dog....but, i just think teaching my dog tricks is FUN to do,
and so does my dog!!

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

TigerLily - I'm sure there are dogs that catch on much quicker than Veronica. But she does seem to me to be a slow learner...or it is my technique. When people see the finished product they always gush about "how smart she is" and they don't get it when I say "Nooo, no she really isn't all THAT smart" but I am thinking of the 3 months and 100+ repetitions it took to get to the finished product; and I know there are some dogs that are like "Oh yeah, I got that" after 1 or 2 sessions!!

Orpheum - I thank you for your kind offer and may ask if we can explore it further. I think first I need to see how commited I am; I admit I have a serious aversion to shaping, and free shaping (now that I know what it is) even more so.

I think after I wrap up what we are currently working on (V. may be able to do more things at once, but I can't) then I will seriously check out Karen Pryor's site and do some reading and try the paws crossed exercise and really try to get on board with giving shaping another try.

I found this on youtube and it both helped make the concept even clearer and at the same time intimidated me with how exacting the process is and how spot on you must be with your timing and seeing the smallest of increments of behavior to reinforce. Seems overwhelming!

 

[tigerlily46514]

//and do some reading and try the paws crossed exercise//


no! no! don't do it!! can i talk you out of this?
lol, many many ppl, found this "cross paws" (the back and forth, repeated crossing of paws) to be a super super hard trick to teach. We had a bunch of us, all trying to teach this trick to our dogs, all at same time, and we all struggled, near as i can remember, maybe some exceptions, but seems like most of us all struggled to have our dogs "get it".



Now, it may be, that you and Veronica will just try it, and get it right off! could happen!
but, if you are feeling a lil overwhelmed, i would NOT not not recommend "cross paws" as a good place to further your own inner confidence, nor your dog's. MY dog literally got honked off a few times learning "cross paws" and i had to keep the lessons super short, and throw in all manner of easy tricks, to keep HIS confidence level and interest level going!!
the part that honked Buddy off, was,
after he spent a week or two learning to cross his left paw over his right leg,
when i went to teach the OTHER leg, well, Buddy kept offering that left paw crossover, and him finding out that was no longer what i wanted, just honked him off!! He was entirely disgusted, that he'd worked sooo hard to master crossing his left paw over,
he just could not believe i now wanted something else.





anyway, if i can talk you out of "cross paws" IF IF IF you are still sort of needing some build up of inner confidence, (if you are) then i would recommend waiting on that trick til you are feeling "YES! YES, i can do this pretty well! and YES, my beloved Veronica IS sure enjoying this stuff" type of thing.
and apologies if i am misinterpreting your words or meanings there. I think probably you are only feeling overwhelmed about free shaping? and not training in general.