Rudeness In Dogs (why Your Da Dog, May Not Actually Be Da)

[tigerlily46514]

Yes, I will get you those links to look over. It's a recessive gene, or can be, for shyness, and da dogs, meaning,
their parents can be fine, and most of their siblings are also fine. It's usually just one or two pups in a litter who are shy, or da dogs, not the entire litter, just one or two.

I think your comparing it to some of the human inborn disorders, like autism, is how i look at it most of the time too. It's a genetic anomaly, and although i don't know much about pitbulls, i see da as striking any breed, and i see da as a disorder, not a breed thing.
But i understand why you might think a pitbull could be more prone to da behavior, cuz of their background/history,
but, i don't think that's it, i don't anyway. Cuz it can strike any breed,
and certainly, the vast bulk of pitbulls are lovebugs, not da dogs.

Even abused pitbulls can walk out of there in love with everyone and every dog, same as any other breed can. Like Michael Vick's pitbulls proved, with 95% of those dogs being lovebugs even after a life of abuse, neglect, etc. If any pitties shoulda been da dogs, it'd be those, yet,
THEY WEREN'T. cuz i think those dogs probably had 'normal' pitbull brains all along, so those dogs pretty easily defaulted back to their 'normal' brained behavior.


Yes, herding is on the DNA, too, although i doubt they've located the genes that control that behavior. But farmers have known for centuries, that if you want a herding dog, then mate up some dogs good at herding...even though the farmers had no idea what DNA even was.
Lots of dog behaviors ARE on the dog's dna, like the baying of the beagle, the urge to retrieve, breeds who point, chase prey independently, etc, etc.
and behaviors that ARE being neurobiologically driven, are just about impossible to rehab out. Oh, you can control a border collie herding, but, it's probably impossible to eradicate that urge to herd...cuz it is on his DNA.

DNA is one powerful thing, but, we can still help dogs become their best possible selves. I so admire your work with Veronica.
Here's a thread i wrote once, more for owners who are JUST NOW realizing their dog is a da dog, for beginners. Obviously, there's tons of ways to approach da dog rehab, but, this is what worked, and (what didn't), for Buddy.
feel free to post your thoughts on it if you want to:http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/7-things-that-helped-my-dog-aggressive-dog.4413/

 

[tigerlily46514]

OH, and yeah, i totally understand how ppl can be brought to feel shame their dog is a da dog. Mmmhm, i used to believe all the myths out there, too, that if only i showed leadership, if only *I* was calm enough, that if my dog is not "right" it's my fault<---cuz everyone "knows" that is true, etc etc, blah blah blah, then my dog would be "fine".


oh yeah, i know what you meant.

yeah, i also think da dogs, although a minority, are way more common than ppl realize,
and i also think da dogs are not well understood, in general.

 

[tigerlily46514]

and yeah, the more i think about how wintertime reduces our dogs chances to keep practicing being calm while seeing other dogs, and how each spring sort of feels like starting alllllll over again almost from scratch............the more i wonder, if da dogs in say, the carribean, fare better with more ongoing success than snowy climate dogs!!



cuz those dogs won't get have that half of a year of not much work being done. hmm.

guess i'll never know.

Cuz Buddy sure is more rusty at being calm around dogs each spring, cuz he doesn't see many unknown dogs in the winter.

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

TOO FUNNY!!
Well, if it was Buddy, who i think sounds much worse than your Veronica, in several little ways, Buddy sounds worse than Veronica is. Veronica, probably through your very careful managment of her, seems to be on a different level than Buddy is, Buddy sounds worse. Almost as if like Buddy HAS crossed lines and deteriorated down, to a worse level than V is at.
I see what you mean, V is not quite like Buddy, i see the differences.

Maybe because as you said; before Buddy came to you he had the opportunity to get in fights. I think that to a certain extent trips the switch as in behavior that is enacted tends to be repeated; especially behavior that is self rewarding...and fighting with the hormonal and adrenaline dump I think can be a "rush" and can in a weird way be a self rewarding, almost addictive behavior.

That's why I think V. isn't DA...yet; and why I think she reacted so badly and so long to that one incident of having a dog snark at her and scrape her snout.

I think, to use an anology; that for V. fighting would be like doing crack. Right now she doesn't really know much about it; she's never experienced it and because it's an unknown it can even seem a little scary at times. However if ever she experienced it and felt the rush of the adrenaline dump and understood it not as an amorphous possibility that she didn't quite get but a sequence of behaviors she had previously enacted...then I tend to think it would become a self rewarding behavior chain that would be much harder to manage - at least for her; although it sounds as if you have done amazing work with Buddy and that his behaviors are or have been much more "serious" and intent driven than are V.'s.

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

I just wanted to cry reading about the conditions that Buddy was raised in. Thank God he found his way to you!!!

but Buddy LOVES rude, in-your-face dogs, any dog who goes nose-to-nose with Buddy is good chance Buddy will like them. Instantly.
buddy totally respects all alpha dogs, the true alpha dogs, buddy is so good.

I wonder if Buddy would like Veronica? Not a true alpha; but I wonder how he would feel about a "Princess and the pea, drama-Queen, Diva, Biatch, alpha wanna be"?

Check out this vid of V. greeting her boyfriend; this was after she had met him a few times and decided she liked him. It is certainly "in your face". (She is also one of the noisest dogs I have ever come across. Didn't say Boo until she was about a year old; but once she found her voice...she hasn't shut up since. )

and Buddy dislikes almost all puppies immediately, and seems disgusted that puppies are allowed to live. but, he doesn't attack puppies, but, will bark loudly at the puppy, and then walk away in disgust, like, "get off my lawn, you kids."

...

Funny you should say that about puppies. Veronica once managed to get a puppy annoyed at her. We were in training class and someone brought in this cute little pit bull pup they had pulled from the shelter and were going to foster/adopt. So I let V. say "hi" thinking all dogs get along with puppies.

So V. does her usual rude, pushy, intrusive sniffing and poking like the puppy is a day old bit of something found on the sidewalk; only the puppy gets pissed and starts barking at her. So then not to out done, V. spazes and starts barking at the puppy like...the loud mouth she is in the video. So I thought that's my dog; can't even get along with a puppy!

 

[tigerlily46514]

oh yeah, i see what you mean, your lil princess is pretty hepped up there, pretty "in your face", i think Buddy might like her, or, her barkiness might get Buddy TOO excited as well. I guess there can be more than one kind of "in your face" cuz there is less-barky form of "in-your-face", as well, which is a big huge favorite of Buddy. Buddy rather loves dogs who are more quietly rude, that kind of dog that, seem like a "big dumb guy with no manners" type?
V's bark just sounds "I"m so so so excited" not aggressive, to me, anyway. She is cute, i know, we 'should be' all focused on she is TOO excited, but, dawg, she is cute, so so excited her lil doggie brain is exploding "it's my friend! i am so excited i can't stand it" too cute.

IS V HARD TO TIRE OUT?

That Veronica strikes me as one lil energetic dog, too!! That greeting is not what Buddy looks like, when he is greeting a pal, Buddy not real barky to his friends, usually, nor does he much jump on the other dog much, either. and when he does, it's more a chin over, almost like "okay, i was kidding" back and forth game thing, it looks like to me. I guess Buddy is not a real pushy dog with his pals,
but wow, does he try to fake it with unknown dogs, goes all gangster.

Sometimes Bud is fairly calm while greeting his friends, othertimes, he will jump around a bit, or do laps. Buddy thinks chasing his friends is big fun, and does sometimes try to get everyone to do laps with him. but sometimes, buddy is very calm, laid back, acts very mature.
guess it depends on which pal he is saying "hi" to, and where they are, and whether or not Buddy is on-leash, or off-leash..oh, and how long it's been since Bud has greeted any of his pals.

How Veronica just greeted her bf, does look like how Cooper across the street greets Buddy, though. (cooper is high energy schnauzer, not a da dog at all).


Lol, yeah, puppies, you know, there are even some 'normal' dogs who aren't too fond of puppies, either. Buddy mostly scolds them all out, whether or not the puppy is even moving. but it's one of the few times i ever feel embarrassed of Buddy....
*sigh*.
I sometimes wonder, IF IF IF i had regular access to puppies (i don't)
if i could help Buddy bring that whole "get off my lawn" grouchy old man routine down a notch, or, if Buddy would be unable to generalize learning to be a gentleman around pups....guess i'll never know. It's one thing to "correct" a rude pup, but my dog will yell at a baby dog who is only barely moving. My dog does not often get to meet pups, anyway, as i know Buddy yells at puppies, so i prevent it as often as i can.
But, i'm pleased that Buddy WILL walk away from puppies, on his own. but, i'd never trust him 100% around a puppy for any length of time...nope, not Buddy.

 

[tigerlily46514]

You know, i was watching Buddy greet his version of his "Auntie Mari" the other night, and Buddy is way way less kissy, even if you sit on floor, Buddy is pretty respectful dog, really, he rarely licks, but, when he does, he looks down afterwards, he then appears a bit bashful,
as if embarrassed he "went too far" or something. but Buddy doesn't much kiss anyone at all, or maybe only once.
not unless you ask him to. "Kisses?" is his cue for that, his daddy taught him that one. Still, it's one(1) kiss, and then he looks down again.


Buddy jumps up, and whines, and wags that tail at 100mph, and big big smiles, and stands there, smiling up at you and admiring you as if you are a deity, with obvious joy and thrilled that a deity has entered his home, just radiating joy,
but tends to look away if you look back at him very long, but, Buddy isn't that kissy, come to think of it, and mostly ONLY kisses us, his family. If we are sitting down, sometimes Buddy comes over and tends to put his head down, and slightly presses his top of his head into you, which seems very sweet to me . Buddy is a generally respectful dog, and is not one of those pants-sniffers, either, yay! And once a guest has been greeted, he sits or lies down and doesn't "stay" all super stoked the entire time.

Buddy never pesters ppl, either, and hardly ever pesters his dog pals, either.



Buddy is a generally serious type of personality, he often seems to be going for the "dignified" type of persona, lol. He is not above giving "i can not belieeeeeeeeeve you did that" type of looks if someone acts stupid, and i think, if he were human, he'd be the dry, sarcastic type who roll their eyes a lot.
He can be goofy, but, when he is goofy, which is so funny when he is goofy, and sometimes he seems embarrassed about it later. and he is energetic, too, oh yeah.

but Buddy may have been a parole officer or maybe a mortgage officer in a previous life.
but, still has his "YES, LET'S PLAY" side.

and since he has so so so so few doggie pals, Buddy IS reallly really great at playing toys all by himself. He even plays catch all by himself, throws a toy up, and runs and catches it, and herds his baskets and drags his giant teddy bear all around with him all day long, too, even brings it outside,
and back in, as if the teddybear is real.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Ooh, last night, we are all standing in our driveway, Buddy is offleash, and a dog i've been working on to get Buddy to NOT react to, went walking by with his owner,
and there is Buddy, off leash, about 20 feet away.

no charging, not at all,
and i got Buddy to sit and even smile at other dog who walked by. Totally relaxed, with very very little effort on my part.

doesn't sound like much,
but, a year ago, Buddy lost his mind that that dog exists, even seeing that dog used to set Buddy off.
I think, if i saw that dog more often, and if i had chance, i bet that is a dog that Buddy could make friends with.

but geez, it's only taken a year.

 

[tigerlily46514]

even off leash, i can almost always, always, get Buddy to freeze where he is, and wait to be leashed up. not for bunnies, though, but, for other dogs, yes.
even unknown dogs, i can get Buddy to stop and wait for his leash to be put on.

now, that is if other dog is just unexpectedly, suddenly, just right in his face, like around a corner, and dog is right there close in his face, nope, would not risk it!!!!!! nope, i'm not sure what Buddy might do even nowadays in that situation, so i would never ever risk going around a corner off leash.

but in his yard,
or even in his street, it's a super low risk that buddy would not stop for and wait for me to leash him.
I can't even remember last time Buddy did not wait for me to leash him upon seeing an unknown dog coming along....it's been a long long long long time.

but not for bunnies, so cuz of bunnies, Buddy is rarely off leash now on his walks.

Prior to deciding he would chase all bunnies------- Buddy used to walk off leash most of the time, he has great recall,
and i'd just leash him up for all corners, or all oncoming dogs or other lifeforms. (even for humans, i'd leash up buddy just so human feels safe)

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

V's bark just sounds "I"m so so so excited" not aggressive, to me, anyway. She is cute, i know, we 'should be' all focused on she is TOO excited, but, dawg, she is cute, so so excited her lil doggie brain is exploding "it's my friend! i am so excited i can't stand it" too cute.

IS V HARD TO TIRE OUT?

That Veronica strikes me as one lil energetic dog, too!!

I also think V. is just excited and not at all aggressive, This is why I say I consider her reactive not DA. This is typical V. She get SOOOOOO EXCITED, SOOOOO easily by certain things; dogs being one of them but not by any means the only thing.

So she gets this excited and she WANTS to interact. She wants to charge right up to every dog she sees and say "HAI! I'M VERONICA! HAI! AREN'T I COOL??! HAI! WHO ARE YOU?? (poke, poke, sniff, sniff, shove, poke, bark, bark, BARK!!!!!)

So this is what I think happens:

1. With strange dogs, I think they react like, "Whoa Nelly, please give me some space, back off a bit". And then V. because she is soooo amped up, and doesn't have good social skills and doesn't know what to do or how to interact then...takes it as a threat, or an offensive move, or as an insult...and she gets verbally pissy in return. But when she gets verbal and gets to the snarling stage...it sounds (I think) way worse than it necessarily is...but her snarl will definitely turn heads and clear a room...and that is what I don't want to happen. I don't want her having an opportunity to engage in that behavior as that will strengthen it and make it more likely to occur; and I don't want her out in public contributing to the negative stereoptype of her breed by sounding like a "vicious dog"...so I think it best that she just not interact with dogs (unless of course they were known and we knew the owners well).

Then the thing about not even being able to play off leash with a dog she does know well....I think it's connected to her level of reactivity/excitement. Think 2 little boys playing cowboys and Indians: 1 accidentally hurts the other in play. The one that was hurt gets a little angry, a little more amped up, a litte more aggressive and now he unintententionally hurts his friend in play...and then it goes back and forth; stimulation and aggravation levels rising - until you have a real fight.

Brenda Aloff the trainer who I love; talks about "play aggression" in her book. She says "These dogs begin inteacting with others by exhibiting play behaviors. However, once a certain threshold of stimulation is exceeded, the dog's behavior begins to excalate rapidly into intense threatening actions. Play stimulates the dog to the extent that she becomes over-aroused given the context, she will begin to display threat behavior or snap and bite the other dog, ignoring clear signals from the other dog that would normally truncate the play."

THAT is how I see V. Discussing it with you helped me put into words and clarify my assessment that she reactive vs. DA; and explain how the issue of intent comes into play. I don't think V. ever starts off intending aggression, but I think she can too easily get worked up to it.

I've never let it play out to say for certain she would escalate to biting; but when she is playing onleash with her boyfriend and we hear that snarl...time out, cool down; can't say exactly where it's going, but it's definitely not going anywhere pleasant!

I think it's sort of sad really; and I feel bad for her - because I really think she wants to interact with other dogs.

In the past when I have tried she also throws out all sorts of submissive signals...crawling towards the other dog, head up to lick it's mouth, rolling over exposing her belly...it's just that once she gets in close enough, she reverts to POKE, POKE, SNIFF, NUDGE, SHOVE and the next thing you she's standing stiff in a dominating position, her hackles are up and there's going to be an explosion.

To answer your question about her energy level... at the thought of V. being energetic. She is the LAZIEST dog on the planet. She is so lazy it is SINFUL. She can't keep up with me, and I am 46 and hardly a dynamo. I could tell you stories forever about the extent of her supreme and shocking laziness. However she is reactive and if something that she reacts to crosses her path she goes from 1 to 60 in under a second; and then of course, it takes a while to calm down from the adrenaline dump.

But let me just say; taking her for a walk - especially if it is warm out - I have had to call for rides home because she refused to continue (and yes, she sees the vet every time she gets so much as a pimple, so she is in excellent health. One time I actually made the vet check her heart )