New To This

[collie23]

That book looks great, definitely going to get it. Thank you Jackienmutts.
I have tried looking at some puppy classes but can't tell the good from the bad at the moment so think i'm going to have to try and go along to a few before the new one arrives.
Would you suggest maybe joining more than one class? does it matter how many you take your dog to, or would that possibly be counter affective as it could be too much to take in/more chances to catch something...?

Also like the thought of several clickers, hadn't thought about it before but would be useful to catch the correct behaviour without running around for half an hour trying to find out where I left one!

so do prevent all chases, use ALL exposure to prey as chances to desensitize your pup to that sight/reward him being calm or ignoring the prey

how would you have gone about this given a second chance Tigerlily? would you distract them from the 'prey' and hopefully teach them to ignore it or would you of tried to get them more used to it by making it a part of their everyday life? I have a friend that has rabbits so could easily teach them that they are friend not prey, although wild rabbits would be a bit different i'm sure.

 

[tigerlily46514]

oh how lucky are YOU that you have a friend with rabbits??? SCORE!! I'm not 100% certain, but, i think just having the infant puppy hang around with bunnies, on a regular basis, since you DO have that opportunity, will teach pup to think of bunnies as no big deal.

LIke have puppy, when very very young, begin hanging out in his yard, with your friends bunnies. Reward all calmness around the bunnies. Have this be regular thing a few times a week your yard, his yard, as many locations as you can.
(keep treats tiny to avoid a full puppy).

I have no idea if this poses any health risk, you'd have to ask someone else, if an unvaccinated pup can hang out side by side with bunnies, i have NO idea.


and yes, use all opportunities to teach dog or puppy "when you see prey, be calm, don't chase the prey" by rewarding calmness, CLICK/TREAT all calmness around prey, or having dog sit for seeing prey, etc,and rewarding dog ignoring the prey if you can catch that, etc.

//"how would you have gone about this given a second chance Tigerlily?"//

well, you won't believe how stupid i was.
what happened was, he was chasing geese, and each time, i called him back.

EDIT: I HAD PREVIOUSLY SPENT EONS OF TIME TEACHING HIM RECALL, and i was alwasy able to recall my dog off of prey,so i had not even the slightest concern he'd take off after prey. Having my dog come when i call him is something i have put much time into, i had left that part out of this story. (don't want you to think one can just take an untrained dog and walk them around prey, we'd done this often, no problem.)


Each time, my rescue dog came back to me, as, like many rescue dogs, they often really bond and appreciate their owners to the max, these dogs HAVE experienced life without being loved, and i sort of think rescue dogs bond even tighter to their human.
Well, my rescue did follow all my rules anyway, very obedient dog, once he knew the rules, he followed them very very well, no complaints.
so there he is---chasing geese,
and returning each time i call him back....
but one time, i stupidly stood there, and i did not call my dog back, i still remember that moment----i saw my dog pause for a moment, as if listening for my call,
which never came,
and off he went!!

i did not call him, cuz i mistakenly thought it was unnecessary,(i know, slap me)
cuz i thought he would stop on his own, cuz there was a river there,
and i stupidly thought that my calling him back, in general, had already conveyed to him, that he can't chase prey, see? big mistake, what was i thinking??? rofl...

in my dog's mind, he wanted to hear it, each and every time, to stop, to return to me. In my dog's mind, if i did NOT call him back to me, he must have thought, "ah ha! this one's MINE!" and my dog then experienced the thrill of the chase....he's never been the same since.

I'd sure like to have that moment back again.

this might not happen to ALL dogs that are allowed to go on a chase,
but, it worked out that way for MY dog, and forever after, i promise you, i will never ever make that mistake again.....cuz now, here i am,
with a dog i can rarely walk off leash....

other contributing factors include, while i am working to get "my" dog back again, to undo the damage i did there, working so hard to get my dog calm when he sees prey, and reward that calmness,
on other days, my guy is egging on my dog "go for it, Buddy, get the bunny" and laughing while my dog chases the bunny....he thought of chasing prey as "good exercise" for the dog to run so fast....

*sigh*.

I find humans a lot harder to train than dogs...

 

[tigerlily46514]

Obviously, there are LOTS of things to focus on when raising a puppy,
but, imo, taking some time to get your puppy or rescue dog to learn to be calm around prey, has a lot of bonuses down the road.

but with so many things to focus on,
like getting your puppy to enjoy being touched by unknown ppl,
getting your pup to enjoy being with dogs,
etc etc,
well, i don't mean to take up whole thread, and make you think, "Main thing about raising a dog is teaching them to not chase prey"
cuz, that's not true.
but, shockingly, it's an item few people seem to teach, when they still did have the chance, they blew it...like i did.

 

[Ivushiq]

Welcome :-) My first dog's also a border collie puppy and I wouldn't change my decision about buying him! He's the sweetest and smartest thing ever :-) It's true that you'll have to spend many time with him and provide him loads of activities, but if you are sure that you'll manage it just go for it! Good luck with him.

I also agree with the chasing issue, I made the same mistake once- but it was a bike instead of geese and now he chases them. But he is still young and I hope that I will learn him not to chase them.

Be sure you use clicker from the beggining- I started to train him without it and he learned well, but many things he just couldn't understand well cuz I wasn't able to tell him- that's it- with the click. For example, he just wouldn't learn to lay down on command for two months and after I started with the cliker training he learned it in 5 days. And we also improved many tricks he could not do very well.

 

[collie23]

Tell me about it, I still live with my parents and brother and have been warned by my mum that my dad enjoys teasing dogs. So have GOT to keep him in check, think I might have to find a treat he really likes so can train him not to bug the puppy. maybe doughnuts would work?

Hind sight is bliss! if only we could time travel to... lol

I don't know whether you've heard of Cesar Milan (probably have), but there is a particular episode which I think may interest you. I know he is a dominance trainer so you may not be interested but I find his methods fascinating and he shows that it does work. Don't get me wrong I think Positive Reinforcement is the best way to train but some behaviours that cannot be trained through positive methods need a different way of working round the issue.
The episode is Season 3 Episode 9 and he works with the writer of Marley and Me, John Grogan. His dog has a high prey drive towards the family chickens and Cesar works by bringing the dog and chicken into a confined area (their garage) and correcting slightly when the dog gets... 'overly friendly'. If you really object to this method you could always try doing the same method as the leave it trick and treating Buddy when he ignores the bunnies/geese etc when in close contact. Of course you need to be able to get the close contact (I did note you said 'lucky me to have friends with rabbits')

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I also agree with the chasing issue, I made the same mistake once- but it was a bike instead of geese and now he chases them. "//

but Ivushiq, dogs can learn to generalize OBJECTS, like bikes, and cars,
much easier, (fairly easy, actually)
than dogs can generalize creatures.
SO THERE IS HUGE CHANCE, that you, Ivushiq, can teach your dog to stop chasing cars and bikes, like we discuss on your other thread.
Getting dogs to generalize one car, to all cars, is much easier,
than getting dogs to generalize living breathing running prey. YOU CAN DO IT, IVUSHIQ!!! THERE IS HOPE FOR YOUR DOG!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

yES, i strongly disapprove of dog whisperer.
Now, i DO love a few things he says,
like his never-waivering emphasis on exercising dogs, on giving dogs stuff to do, LOVE IT!! I TOTALLY AGREE.

BUT, i disagree most strongly with many many things he says.

//"but some behaviours that cannot be trained through positive methods need a different way of working round the issue."//

name one.
I disagree 5000% with you there, first-time dog owner. I can see, how DW (dog whisperer) has dazzled you with his yank-and-intimidate-and-kick dogs show,
and you are not alone, many of us here were once DW fans, too....til we got a dog.

but, in real life,
there is NO NEED whatsover, to ever kick a dog,
ever.
Also, i strongly disagree with DW's hypnotizing everyone that if a dog has an issue, that the dog is just manifesting his human's secret inner unresolved issue!
WHAT A BUNCH OF HORSE POPPY!

dogs have their own ideas, their own brains, their own fears and concerns, UNRELATED to us.
I know someone who has a dog that is afraid of plastic bags. SHE is not afraid of plastic bags, her dog is.
I am slightly afraid of huge spiders, but, my dog isn't.
My dog has reacted,when i was so calm, i wasn't even paying att'n.
My dog has been calm when i was shaking and sweating and trembling at the sight of a large unleashed dog barreling towards us.

turns out, my dog has his own brain,
he is NOT an extension of me, but he is his very own unique individual creature.
He and i do not share a brain.

and lol, especially amusing, is when a human has 4 dogs.
3 of the dogs are fine, but one dog is reactive.
What, the other 3 dogs are just too dumb to pick up on their human's secret inner issue? rofl.

I know nervous, jumpy insecure fearful ppl, who have calm, laid back, easy going dogs...
I know some confident, well balanced, pleasant humans who live with reactive dogs.

Dogs are not manifestations of us, nor are they extensions of us.

It sort of comes down to what type of relationship you want to have with your dog?
One based on trust and respect,
or one based on fear and punishment and force.

btw, border collies are notoriously sensitive to negative punishment, even a mildly raised voice to a BC feels like a stab in their heart. If you plan to use DW's yank and leash-pop methods, i think you should not get a border collie.

here's another reason i am against DW---if you can bear to look at this?

 

[tigerlily46514]

I know you have your heart in the right place,
and you've just been fooled by a tv show, like many of us once were, too,
but, please, for the sake of your dog,
put dog-whisperer on child-lock,
and instead,
tape and record every episode of "It's Me or The Dog" tv show, with Victoria Stillwell.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"nd Cesar works by bringing the dog and chicken into a confined area (their garage) and correcting slightly when the dog gets... 'overly friendly'"//

You mean leash popping, kicking, or yanking his neck.

I, or most anyone else here, could do exact same result,
without ever scaring the dog, or using force.
I have desensitized my dog to bazillions of objects and creatures, using only treats and clicker,
no yanking
no intimidating.
none.

just treats and clicker.
can be done.

but, one does have to have regular access to the item or creature to achieve best result. I can not control when we see bunnies. darn it.
i have recently trained my dog to do a default sit and look at me for all bunnies on a walk. but, that is ON LEASH.....

BUT YEAH, give me a cage full of bunnies to work with,
i might be able to film my dog lying calmly amidst the bunnies....using only a clicker and treats.

 

[tigerlily46514]

see, Collie23,
i am not judging you, you are new to dogs, and your heart is in right place,
and you are only fooled by some guy on tv, like many of us were,
and i do not not not not want to chase you away, i want very very much for you to belong here on DTA, and feel welcome, and everyone has right to their own beliefs,
but one more thing before i shut up,
is
consider the killer whales at SeaWorld.

no way at all to yank their leash, or show them "leadership" by using force on them, no way at all to even remotely scare them....can not be done.

Yet, using a clicker and treats, the humans get those wild, one ton beasts to do egggzactly what they want, using only a clicker and treats.....


It's also how most circus animals are trained.
No way to leash-pop or yank a tiger around,
yet, using a clicker and treats,
a scrawny human can get a tiger to overcome his fear of fire.

it's certainly worth trying on your 50 lb dog....

 

[collie23]

i DO love a few things he says

This is my opinion of him to. I definitely do not approve of all his methods especially the kicking/hitting of dogs. Please do not think that I would ever do this! I was only trying to help with a possible way of training your dog to stop chasing animals seeing as positive training seemingly has not worked.

 

[tigerlily46514]

love your post there, collie23!!



//"seeing as positive training seemingly has not worked."//

well, i think it would work, the way it has worked so many times before, with so many other creatures and objects, IF i had regular access to some bunnies, who would sit still for me, to get my dog to learn to be calm by them, and reward him being calm. this might work, if i had some bunnies in a place i could safely work off leash with him, without fear of him chasing them and getting hit by car.

but, i don't have that....can your friend let me borrow his bunnies???like i said, give me a cage full of bunnies, and i could probably give you a film of my dog lying calmly amidst them. I really probably could, if i had a yard full of bunnies were stuck in the yard, and could not get away.

 

[tigerlily46514]

i actually had considered, at one point, buying some bunnies to work with this on.

then my glass of wine wore off,
and i realized, bunnies have a right to a better life,
than being in some cage while my dog learns to be calm with them....

 

[Pawtential Unleashed]

Starting with some basic impulse control would help - then build to higher drive items:

 

[collie23]

Unfortunately i dont think the bunnies are for rent and getting them to you might be a bit tricky.
I have thought of another thing that you could try (if you haven't already) i think Victoria Stilwell uses it in one of her episode. (might just be imagining it)
Make yourself more interesting than the bunnies/geese. Whenever your dog chases after a bunny you could try by running in the opposite direction, making noise to get his attention, and making the game of chase about chasing you. And also reward for chasing you instead of the bunnies. Obviously i have not tried this out so may have negative effects (may constantly try to chase you which you would need to consider) but you could put it to a que word so its more of a trick.
But ultimately chasing bunny would be boring compared to following you, finding out what all the fuss is about where you are and getting a reward for coming to you.
Just a possible solution...

 

[tigerlily46514]

Yes, Collie23 and Pawtential, both of those ideas and exercises are great ideas,
we have an entire thread on this topic: help for dogs who chase prey:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/tips-for-dogs-that-chase-prey.4492/
Guess you two are both welcome to join in over there on that thread, to avoid further derail of Collie23's thread.

At least on that thread, I was kind of glad to find out, i am not only one who can not call their dog off chasing prey! My dog has otherwise flawless recall, and i can leave this dog alone in a room with a hot steak on the floor,
i can hold liver on each side of his face--right by his mouth--- and he keeps his eyes on me.
I can keep this dog in precise position right beside me for doggie dancing heelwork, right past hot steaks all over the floor, while he keeps his eyes on me.

my point is,
it's not he isn't trained,
it's not Buddy has no impulse control.
It is he HAS experienced the thrill of the chase, and apparently, that's like doggie-crack or something....very addictive....very self rewarding....nothing else quite like it to the dog.


thing is, i have taught Bud to almost default sit and look at me for all bunnies, and then, i have him calmly gaze right AT the bunnies, and reward that.
and i've even had him lie down not far from wild bunnies. See reply # 101, on page 6 of that link above, for example---------> Big progress, however, that IS on-leash............ i have not been able to even attempt OFFleash out of fear of my dog getting hit by a car while chasing the bunny. ...when Buddy is chasing a bunny, the entire earth disappears, he would not see cars, hot steaks, nor me, could probably run right through fires,
he sees ONLY the bunny....

One factor i have working against me, is,
to fully eradicate a behavior, one must prevent it (it's self rewarding)
as well as desensitize the dog to it.
well, my dog is still killing a bunny per week, IN HIS OWN YARD.
Buddy is quite fast, and very adept at his bunny killling. Even if i am out in yard with him, it's like a flash, zooom,
and then, seconds later--- i have a dog dropping the dead bunny at my feet ....i take it wordlessly, as i don't want to encourage or praise this,
nor do i want my dog to hide his kills from me by scolding him turning over his kills....so i silently take the dead bunnies. We've done all we can, hooking the fence tight to the ground, yet, bunnies still run through our yard all the time...as do skunks, racoons, deers, oppossums, gophers, moles, groundhogs, chimmunks, squirrels, the occasional cat, etc etc.

It's not "just" bunnies he kills in his own yard, but bunnies are far and away Buddy's very favorite prey.

There is nothing,
not a hot steamy piece of liver,
not a brand new squeak toy,
not me running in other direction,
not a toy on fishing pole,
nothing
NOTHING
that is equal to the thrill of the chase. nothing i can offer, is equal that blast of endophins....nothing.
yet, i will continue to work on this,
i continue to make progress,
and i will not give up.

lol, maybe someday my dog will be a geezer dog, still being trained to stop chasing bunnies? could happen! i won't give up!! I sure wish i could have prevented him ever ever experiencing the thrill of the chase, i sure do regret that moment....IF I KNEW THEN,
what i know NOW, things would be different for my dog, i am the one who messed up, i had no idea what a stoooopid mistake i was making back then....

I think, the only thing i can think of, that i could do differently, is keep my dog on a very short leash in his own huge backyard at all times. which seems like such a bummer, as this is a border collie who needs his exercise and would probably quickly deteriorate into full blown nutz being on a short leash at all times in his own yard....


(i have seen Bud begin to go nutz, and i realize he is not being kept busy enough, and nip it in the bud ---ooh, a pun! but, we are now so so good, at spotting the first inklings he is going a lil nutty, bad weather etc, that we always just head it off by stepping up Bud's activities---someday, Collie23 will know juuuust what i meant there, about a BC going nutz........mmHmm.)

 

[southerngirl]

[QUOTElol, maybe someday my dog will be a geezer dog, still being trained to stop chasing bunnies? could happen! i won't give up!!][/QUOTE]
Don't worry tigerlily if he hasn't been taught not to chase bunnies by than he'll probably stop by his own chose Chase did he decided he was to old to chase cars, motercycles, run away, pull on leash(drag me downstairs painful) even fight with neighborhood dogs(only did this if me or my brothers were around)

 

[tigerlily46514]

so southerngirl, there is hope? i just have to wait another decade or so?
you are probably right....

 

[southerngirl]

Yup that's the easy way just wait until Buddy is old shh.. don't give away my secret.

 

[Evie]

oh how lucky are YOU that you have a friend with rabbits??? SCORE!! I'm not 100% certain, but, i think just having the infant puppy hang around with bunnies, on a regular basis, since you DO have that opportunity, will teach pup to think of bunnies as no big deal.

LIke have puppy, when very very young, begin hanging out in his yard, with your friends bunnies. Reward all calmness around the bunnies. Have this be regular thing a few times a week your yard, his yard, as many locations as you can.
(keep treats tiny to avoid a full puppy).

I have no idea if this poses any health risk, you'd have to ask someone else, if an unvaccinated pup can hang out side by side with bunnies, i have NO idea.

and yes, use all opportunities to teach dog or puppy "when you see prey, be calm, don't chase the prey" by rewarding calmness, CLICK/TREAT all calmness around prey, or having dog sit for seeing prey, etc,and rewarding dog ignoring the prey if you can catch that, etc.

Hi and welcome to the forum by the way. For Collie23 who doesn't know me, I bought a border collie pup (Evie) just before Christmas 2011. Best thing I ever did, and absolutely LOVE the breed, but my god, you need to be VERY committed to the dog and have heaps of time and energy to keep them occupied and sane.

Tigerlilly, Evie grew up with a Bunny. Bunny has been in the back yard since day one (and didn't cause Evie any health problems).. and since day one Evie has been dead set on stalking the bunny when ever she has spare time. However, unlike Buddy, Evie will recall away from bunnies whether it be wild running bunnies or her bestest bunny pal in the back yard. But oh how she LOVES bunnies (and guinea pigs). I TRIED to teach Evie calm behaviours around the bunny and failed miserably because if there was a bunny in sight she'd have to be 100% focused on the bunny and she would completely ignore the clicker and completely ignore the treats and toys and ... everything. When she was younger the best way to get her attention when she was focused on a bunny was to run because she never wanted to be left out or left alone lol. I must admit though, she is growing out of her obsession... sort of. She is still very much obsessed, but is much MUCH more likely to come when called (on the first call) rather than on the 8th or 9th.

(i have seen Bud begin to go nutz, and i realize he is not being kept busy enough, and nip it in the bud ---ooh, a pun! but, we are now so so good, at spotting the first inklings he is going a lil nutty, bad weather etc, that we always just head it off by stepping up Bud's activities---someday, Collie23 will know juuuust what i meant there, about a BC going nutz........mmHmm.)

Lol. Fun isn't it. Border Collies are VERY good at letting you know when they're bored. And for a YOUNG border collie, it's pretty much every second of every day that you're not actively doing something with them. ENJOY!

I found that Evie was easy to tire out just by doing some trick training every day and playing with her toys for a bit until she reached about 5-6months old. NOW, tiring out Evie is near impossible. Seriously, I can spend from 9am til 3pm with her doing things to keep her mind and/or body active and then she'll sleep for an hour tops before she's all ready to start playing again....


Oh there's so much I want to say about what to do and what not to do with puppies.... so many things I got wrong and so many things I would have done differently if I knew back then what I do now (not that there's anything wrong with Evie).

GOODLUCK WITH THE PUPPY! Can't wait until we can see some pics! If you ever have any questions there are so many people on here willing to help and many of us have experience with these lovely border collies.