Covered In Scabs

[DaniG]

Another question, in regards to fleas, is what exactly she is USING for flea prevention, as some flea preventions are more effective than others, and some are more effective in different areas of the country than others (In Florida, for example, Frontline is not always the best choice, even though it works great in other parts of the country)

 

[tigerlily46514]

DaniG, i have moved you and i derail over to here:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/eating-too-high-of-protein-does-not-cause-or-excaberate-dog-aggression.5049/

 

[Mr-Remington]

• She is has him on Advantage, and the spray is called Sentry Nautral Defense. With the California heat we tend to get fleas pretty bad. But we only see 3 or 4 fleas on our dogs. Even my puppy will sit there an bite unless I bath him, or brush him for an hour.
• She just started using the spray recently and after she sprays the dog he doesn't scratch for a day or so. Thats the only reason she had continue to use it.

• He never has fleas on him but we think they bite and jump off.
• The oatmeal shampoos do nothing for him, it never has. No shampoo she baths when works. She's tried just about everything they sale at Petsmart.
• I shave him down for her every 3 or 4 months. Unless it the summer then once a month or every 2 months. It skin problem gets a lot worse during the summer. Plus when his coat is longer he scratches a lot more. Way worst then if he is shaved.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"She just started using the spray recently and after she sprays the dog he doesn't scratch for a day or so. Thats the only reason she had continue to use it."//

did the rash start before or since she started using this spray??
so maybe this rash is or might be flea bites then?? she is currently battling fleas??

awwww....does she know she has to treat whole house, car, everywhere?

 

[Mr-Remington]

It started way before. And yeah she did treat the whole house.

 

[Mr-Remington]

We went to the pet store today. The lady told her not to try a raw diet as it does not work for everyone. She told him to try Acana dry food, Duck or lamb flavor, as it may be an allergic reaction to chicken or beef and to stay away from those flavors. She also said BLUE is not a good dog food and to stay away from it. She said it may be an allergic reaction to the environment not what he is eating. She said to wipe him down with a warm towel every time he comes inside from playing outside. The place we went to is called Furry Face. http://www.furry-face.com/ If you wanna see what the place was like.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"The lady told her not to try a raw diet as it does not work for everyone. "//
does not work?
work in what way?
for what dog?

Raw is the only type of dog food where you have almost no allergens, unless you have a dog allergic to a type of meat itself. Evne then, it's way way easier to say, "ah ha! my dog gets itchy when i give him lamb! ah ha!"
and for such a small dog, raw meat would not be that expensive to feed a dog.

It might be allergic reaction to flea bites. I did not realize this owner is currently battling fleas...
Warm towels, in the summer time, on a rash, don't seem like a good idea to me.

Acana dry food, Duck or lamb flavor, is great dog food, but now i am more and more worried, now that we know there are fleas involved, that this might just be an allergy to flea bites...i had thought, since no mention was ever made that this dog is being sprayed a few times a week with flea sprays, i'd thought this was just some spontaneous rash.

sometimes, they live out in the yards, too, and are hard to get rid of....it can be quite a battle from what i hear. oh no,i feel real bad for this dog.

now i think it might be allergy to flea bites....i think DaniG is right!

 

[tigerlily46514]

fancy store! wooo!!! i bet you both spent some money in there!! i know i would have! i bet they had cool stuff!!

still, this is a clerk in the store,
who, like so many ppl, does not understand raw feeding...

 

[Mr-Remington]

It was the owner she does everything herself as far as inventor and she was the only person there besides the groomer in the back. She is well educated in the subject because a lot of the things she said I've read here on DTA. But she did say its good to mix up their diet, he could have raw meat but no chicken or beef to be sure that it's not a allergy. She said giving then variety is the best you can do for them. We've always thought it was something with fleas but everyone is says it is his diet. I spent over a $100 today at that store. Fell in love with everything!

 

[tigerlily46514]

I BET you fell in love with everything! I hope so much that great dog food does help with this dog's skin.
//" We've always thought it was something with fleas but everyone is says it is his diet"//
Yeah, i feel bad, i had no idea when you posted this thread that dog was even fighting against fleas, so i just assumed "skin problem = allergy, and most likely, an allergy to something he's eating." cuz zero mention was made about the fleas, the spray, etc. so you two might have been right all along, maybe it's allergy to flea bites...
but, anyway,
even if it is fleas, eating such a great dog food should help the dog's overall health anyway.

PS--oh good, thanks to whichever mod got my msg and took down our derail thread, which was just getting lame!

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

Interesting thread. Mr. Remy, I think that the dermatologist (she is a DACVD, right?) will straighten this out for sure. Rather than the spray, your friend can use Advantage as the dermatologist indicates (sometimes you can use it every 2 or 3 weeks, to make sure you don't get any breakthrough) and check him for fleas herself. He's white, small, and shaved down, so it will be easy to see fleas. Both of my dogs have been mostly white and it's easy enough to do a belly rub ending in a gorilla-style nitpick of the underside of the neck and the inner thigh/groin area, and check around the base of the tail when the dog is right side up. Also -- and if this sounds too obvious I apologize in advance -- make sure that every animal in the household, and every animal he comes in regular contact with, is treated preventatively for fleas. This means housemates, regular play partners (stay away from the dog run while you figure this out), and neighbor dogs. You can't do anything about wandering cats, but if there are fences and neighbor dogs, I'd ask about flea prevention and even go so far as to offer to give it to them to put on for three months as a trial.

This is all because for flea allergies, even a bite can cause problems, and Advantage kills fleas once they're already on the dog, so you need to keep them out of the area (the soil in the yard) and the house. She can research diatomaceous earth for outdoor or hard to treat areas.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted on the derm appointment ok?

 

[Mr-Remington]

Thanks for the advice A&C I will be sure to post back after the appointment as well as when ever something new is tried!

 

[Mr-Remington]

Tigerlily-We are leaning towards fleas now. Since it is always worse in the summer, and that when the fleas are all over the place. I told her to make sure she continues to use Advantage, as well as constantly cleaning the house for fleas and the yard too if possible. Lets hope we see improvement.

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

//"Possibly. SOME dogs, but certainly not all dogs, develop aggressive behavior when they are eating a high protein diet. Lowering the protein content in their food may help reduce the aggressive behavior. "//

This is the opinion of the person who wrote that, and a new one to me!! Zero footnotes on his remark, cuz there is no research to back it up. I'd bet, i could feed any aggressive dog you

There is, though it is conflicting and many vet behaviorists view it as generally flawed. It has to do with higher protein reducing levels of tryptophan and affecting seratonin, a chemical messenger well known for its behavioral effects.

You can see some of the research here and here.

Now here comes a long drawn out post with multiple quotes and subjects :

TL:

Most meats are 21% to 28% protein range.

That's on a dry-matter basis? Skin/bone removed? Or do you mean raw diets (so including bones and skin) are 21-28%, and is that on a dry matter basis? Because I can't see a muscle being just 21% protein, or raw chicken being 21% protein and 79% fat on a dry matter basis. But then annoyingly, DM doesn't take ash into account, so if we want to be strict about it, all the diets should have content analyzed as metabolizable energy. And I'd bet a pound of raw steak has a much higher ME than a pound of kibbles

TL:

neurobiological disorder, visible in their brains when you scan such dogs.

I can't find any references to this research, can you point me in the right direction? (Admittedly I haven't looked everywhere for it.) Also, you mention elsewhere that there is a recessive gene responsible for aggression? I haven't found indications of that, either, although there is a lot of new research showing that genes affecting seratonin or hormone expression may be responsible for aggression in certain lines of purebred dogs, such as this research from the Netherlands. But not that a single recessive gene is behind dog aggression.

I have to admit, working with many many dogs over the years, that by far, human-directed aggression is greatly enhanced if not caused by poor socialization, punitive training techniques (which appear to the dog to be abnormal, unpredictable aggression on the part of humans), and lack of early handling and desensitization. We have all met dogs who have lived through abusive situations and are good with people, giving everyone a clean slate, but I would say that discounting the background is underestimating the dog. The dog is choosing to give every new person a chance--it's not inevitable, it's the choice of that dog. I have met dogs who are not going to give any other human any chance at all, and although those dogs are more rare, they speak to the fact that prior experience shapes the dog's attitude towards humans. My very much beloved late dog was a street dog, captured and warehoused in a 'never kill' shelter in someone's basement and he was totally neutral on people when I met him. They hadn't done him any good, so he had no real interest in them. He learned to love and enjoy people's company with me, but he always had that attitude with new people of 'oh hey, who are you?' -- an evaluation rather than excitement at human attention.

This is not to discount that some dogs definitely have brain problems! I know Grisha Stewart's description of her ACD mix points to an innate problem, and I have known a GSD who attacked her first person at 16 weeks, and also attacked inanimate objects, etc. And a pittie X who attacked his first dog in puppy class at 11 weeks! Both dogs were beautifully socialized. There are dogs who become intolerant of other dogs at social maturity as well. So no argument there, just saying that the importance of a pup's socialization period cannot be discounted, neither can their life experiences. With my late dog, there were things I had to manage his whole life because he hadn't gotten the proper exposure to the human world as a puppy. Along those lines, I would never, ever feel comfortable living with polar bears, even if weeks and months passed with them not eating me!

DG:

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, because I can cite sources that clearly say that the body cannot store protein easily. I do agree that excess carbs, fats, etc are stored as fat.

Maybe I can settle this? You're both right, I think you were just speaking of slightly different things. Excessive protein, beyond daily requirements, makes by-products that are urinated out (like sulphur and nitrogen) and energy/glucose which is stored as fat if unused. So there is no dietary benefit to excessive protein consumption as protein cannot be stored as protein. The energy from that protein will be stored as fat, so eating beyond your daily protein needs is pointless because you can't call back that protein later on and use it as protein. Does that make sense? This is why feeding hunting dogs high protein during hunting season makes sense, but it is wasteful in the off-season as their physical demands are much less.

TL:

Raw is the only type of dog food where you have almost no allergens, unless you have a dog allergic to a type of meat itself.

Yup, since the most common allergen is beef. Most people don't know that animals with food allergies are allergic to the protein of that food. So a dog allergic to fish, for example, could consume a very purified fish oil since it's fat and not protein. So the most common allergens are common proteins used in dog and cat food like beef, poultry (there is cross-reaction between different bird meats), corn (yes, it has protein, as proven by corn allergies!), and dairy.

This is different than a food intolerance, obviously -- something that the dog or human just digests poorly.

Sorry for the long winded reply, I wanted to catch everything in this interesting thread.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I can't find any references to this research, can you point me in the right direction? (Admittedly I haven't looked everywhere for it.)"//

I will post a thread on this soon, i have 100s of links, literally 100s, that i've collected over the years, and i have to obviously trim that down. I especially like research teams who separate out the shy dogs (who tend to have primary targets of unknown HUMANS, IF IF IF they ever do develop aggression, these dogs are born shy, not aggressive)
from the da dogs, who do have primary target of unknown dogs, and tend to love humans.

it's two different disorders.
but, unfortunately, only a few researchers DO separate out the two types of dogs in their research on aggression, which can botch and skew the results and studies.
Either type of dog, the shy dog (born shy, not aggressive)
or the da dog,
can develop spillover diffuse aggression, to include a secondary target.
In which case you can now have a da dog who ALSO is reacting to humans,
or a shy/aggresive dog who is now ALSO reacting to dogs.

Very hard to sort out when a dog is reacting to BOTH targets, and worst is, when you have a shy reactive dog, AND a da dog, both living together in same house, wow, now THAT'S one hot mess to sort out.


but those secondary targets are usually quite readily rehabbed out again(unless the 2 kinds of dogs live together.. )....it's the primary target we struggle with for the dog's entire life, cuz it is an inborn neurobiological disorder.

Understanding that difference, when one hears about a dog who is now 100% cured of one of his targets, is helpful. My dog is da dog, who had also developed diffuse, generalized aggression, to include humans, as well. He is cured of his aggression to humans. cuz he is a da dog, not a shy dog.
Curing a shy dog who has become aggressive to humans (the aggression can be removed and dog has to be well managed to keep it removed off of his platter of behaviors) will be more challenging than it was for MY dog.

Curing a shy dog who has developed diffuse, generalized aggression towards dogs also,
will be easier,
than ever trying to cure a da dog of aggression of HIS aggresion to dogs.
see? but lots of ppl lump both types together, and can't figure out why Fred had such great luck curing his dog of aggression to dogs, but, Bill can't cure it. It depends on WHICH type of dog one is working with..

it's two different disorders, with two distinct neurochemical signatures in their bloodstreams and brains.

and then,
of course,
there are "normal" brained dogs, who have "learned" aggression, whether through abuse, training, horrible socialization, etc,
but those dogs tend to rehab very readily back into their default "normal" brained behaviors,
like 95% of MIchael Vick's dogs proved.
We humans CAN 'create' an aggressive dog,
but not a PERSISTENTLY aggressive dog for life, which is unamenable to rehab-----that kind requires neurobiological disorder to keep it going despite rehab efforts.

STILL, WE CAN MAKE A SHY DOG,
OR A D.A. DOG BETTER
OR
WORSE....no doubt about it.

and it is recessive genes, (sorry, i looked back over,and although usually i said geneS, i did, at one point, refer to "gene".) and often, the parents of da dogs or shy dogs, are "normal" dogs.

Many many behaviors in dogs are on the dog's DNA,
even though we don't yet know which exact chromosome it's on. Farmers knew the urge to herd is an intense inherited behavior, for centuries, long before we ever heard of DNA.
so is
the beagles urge to bay,
the retriever's love to retrieve,
the dachsund who loves to dig and tunnel,
the lapdogs urge to be in one's lap,
the greyhound's urge to chase down prey,
guarding breeds urge to guard,
hunting breeds urge to track prey for miles,
lots and lots of dog behaviors ARE "born in"
these behaviors ARE on the dogs DNA............"inherited" and inborn, and eradicating the urge, is a real real hard thing to do, if not impossible.
we can learn to control the urge, to direct the urge to our wishes (if we are goood at training )
but it's darn hard to eradicate the URGE itself,
cuz, it's neurobiologically driven.


and few of those behaviors are visible in the litter box, but, manifest as the dog grows up....same as dog-aggression, which doesn't usually manifest til the dog approaches maturity, typically at around 9 mos old, with some variation. Because da behavior is NOT visible in the litter box, no one can accept it IS on the dog's dna,
and all dog owners come up with "The Reason" their dog, at 9 mos old, began to hate unknown dogs...for the entire rest of his life...."It's cuz he had a bad day at puppy class one time"
"It's cuz i yanked his collar when i tried to teach him to stop jumping up"
"Its cuz his previous owner hit him"
"It's cuz a big dog scared him during his special window of socialization time of his life is why, almost 8 mos later, my dog is now reacting to unknown dogs."

and so on. Stunning to compare all the billions of happy dogs who have ALSO experienced same exact things, OR WORSE, yet, THEY love all dogs and all humans....go figure, eh?


Now shyness can be spotted in the litter box, if one knows what to look for. And there are levels of shyness, quite a spectrum, from mild to severe.
Again, not all shy dogs ever develop aggression, but, when they do, their primary target is humans. Usually, the shy dogs get on well with other dogs.
Just like the da dog usually loves humans.


it's two different disorders.
and the shy dog brain and the da dog brain, don't look the same as each other in an MRI scanner.
it's two different disorders.
And the normal dogs' brain doesn't look like either one of the dog disorders, either.


sorry again for derail, this is a topic i am most enthused to discuss, even though, most of dogdom disagrees and has never heard of this, as they read blogs not research,
and i will go through my links and try to post only about 10 ? 20? links, or it's too overwhelming, no one would read them all.
I WILL POST THE LINKS I HAVE. I have hestitated cuz, everyone goes bezerk and hates on me. rofl! To those who want to cling to the notion, that all dogs are born perfect, and if a dog has issues for his entire life despite rehab efforts,-- that it's result of human error of some type,
hate the idea i post, not me, okay?

Like all of science, there is not just one bit of research which answers the entire question, as da dogs, and shy dogs, both have multiple physical anomalies,
but it is built upon, bit by bit, unravelling the answers, over multiple bits of research, providing a picture of what IS going on neurobiologically with these dogs!!
MR REMI, you just jump on in whenever, despite some other posts like mine, which are totally off of your very important topic, i so apologize, and you just jump in regardless of whatever the most recent post is about,

and just post about your friends dog's progress, we really DO care very much about that dog, and hope so much for recovery, and we do feel much much empathy for the whole situation, cuz, it doesn't sound super simple to fix after all, since it's probably fleas...but, no doubt, you and your friend CAN solve this!!! HAVE HOPE!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Re: your question on dry protein, etc.
THE % PROTEIN IN MEAT,
I am going by whole meat, as i am/was generally discussing raw feeding.
If you give a dog 100 grams of chicken,
(a piece of real chicken),
there will be about 26 grams of protein in the 100 gram piece of chicken....

so it's 26% protein.

does that answer your question?

 

[tigerlily46514]

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you refer to RESEARCH!! YESsssssssss!!!!

Re: the research, i did see those the other day, when looking for evidence on this,
and i am bummed out,
like most researchers, they try to sort out "types" of aggression, ("dominant", territorial, etc etc)
instead of sorting out the type of dogs,
like shy dogs
and
da dogs.
Once you begin to sort out the dogs into those two basic groups, it's easier (for me, anyway) to further break down any other types or expressions of aggression)
I once read a blog which listed seventeen (17) types of aggression!! and not one word on the type of dog. (shy vs da dog)

oh well. but yeah, i can see where typtophan, long known to calm humans down (it's why we get sleepy on thanksgiving, it's in turkey)
could possibly help another mammal calm down too.
but, the first link
//"

Results of this study suggest that a reduction in dietary protein content is not generally useful in the treatment of behavior problems in dogs, but may be appropriate in dogs with territorial aggression that is a result of fear."//​

​

but you are right, this research, leans on the subjective, and it's hard to sort out the Placebo Effect, ​

if many of these humans already believed a lower protein diet would reduce their dogs aggression, they might see what they expect to see.....there are even humans who​

swear​

that this flower oil or that flower oil reduces their dogs fears, etc etc, and if asked, would make the claim to these researchers, although those flowers were chosen cuz some guy felt happy when he held his hand over the flower.​

People tend to see what they are told IS there....like The Emporer's Clothes children book.​

but, tryptophan is a known calming agent, so it might be something to consider, which i did discuss on the other "derail" thread,​

that dietary management might play a role in helping aggressive dogs, (although i don't think it is a low protein diet)​

as researchers have found, among other neurochemical abnormalities in aggressive dogs bloodstreams, ​

that persistenly aggressive dogs have abnormal levels of zinc, and omega 3s**. [and something else, which can be eaten, which i can't think of right now...}​

​

as well as their baseline levels of serotonin, dopamine, adrenaline, etc, are all "off", too, in the persistently aggressive dogs.​

​

**I tried adding in omega oils to see if that would help my dog, but, i can't say it did.​

bummer, although i did think his coat seemed even more glorious..​

 

[tigerlily46514]

it's interesting the typtophan did not help with hyper dogs...
and one can only wonder,
if the "territorial" dogs were more often brought visitors for the humans to have assessments to report to the research team,
and overtime, the dogs became somewhat more accustomed to visitors....who knows? (re the improvement reported in "territorial" aggression based on fear, which sounds like "shy" dogs in my ear, and yes, shy dogs can become accustomed to visitors).

it's an interesting study.

It would be interesting to know, if these researchers were calling da dogs = the dogs with "dominance" aggression,
and it'd be intersting to know,
if the owners were bringing their da dogs around unknown dogs more often,--- but not also doing desensitization work,-------- to be able to observe for improvements to report to the team,

and that could possibley be a factor in the "dominance" aggression dogs having highest scores. If i were to bring buddy around unknown dogs often,
but not be ALSO doing desensitization efforsts at those times,
Buddy can and will also escalate his reactions to the unknown dogs...mmmHmm. but, it'd have nothing whatsoever to do with what he ate.

 

[Mr-Remington]

This is a little off topic, but when we were talking to the lady at Furry Face she mentioned that I shouldn't take Remi anywhere since he doesn't have all his shots. Not even if its in the cart at Petsmart. That he will be fine after 4 months if he isn't exposed to anything before that. But I've noticed since the only place I take him is my friends, and to Petsmart once or twice a week he is more timid towards loud noises and some dogs that barks or walk by our fence in the backyard. Should I follow her advice?

 

[Adrianna & Calvin]

Hi Mr. Remington

Check out this thread for discussion of just that very thing