Covered In Scabs

[tigerlily46514]

I haven't yet read your entire post, but, i read this line:

//" When he was 10 months old, he bit a chunk of another dog's ear clean off, and has since bitten other dogs before I really learned how to properly manage him."//

and wanted to point, the genetic type of dog-aggression, (usually, da dogs LOVE humans) begins to manifest at typically about 9 mos old. There is a little variation on this, but, 9 mos old is usually when the owner realizes "Something is different here in this dog"
and by age 12 mos old, most dogs are in some type of rehab, etc.

but, there are the occasional reports of a da dog manifesting at slightly older, as late as 12 to 14 mos old, but i always have questions, like, how often was that dog around unknown dogs that it didn't show up til 14 mos old?? or, possibley, some dogs approach maturity at different rates, and that would explain the late ones.....

 

[DaniG]

And also, I am not sure why that link brings you to a different forum than the one that I got that quote from, but if you google "Jill Zarin High Protein" its the fifth one down, and it's on the third page. (The Victoria Stilwell quote)

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Even though he is stimulated, exercised, and WAS socialized during those critical weeks, he is still untrustworthy"//

I completely believe you. Tons of stories of dog who were well raised, properly socialized, yet, began to manifest their inborn d0g-aggression gene at they approach maturity, typically at about 9 mos old. It is the UNKNOWN dog that sets off a da dog, not his housemates or known dogs. My da dog has come to make some friends, and no longer reacts to those dogs, cuz he now KNOWS those dogs.
Even though i feel the PERSISTENT form of dog-aggresion is genetic,
i believe we can make such dogs BETTER or WORSE.
BUT we can't 'create' one, nor can we cure one completely 100% either.


no doubt, you will (and probably have) read millions of articles all stating you did something wrong raising him, or you are currently doing something wrong managing him, or else he'd be just fine,
but, i disagree. Unfortunately, most dog authorities, when writing on this subject, do NOT turn to research or science, but just write blogs with no footnotes.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//but if you google "Jill Zarin High Protein" its the fifth one down//

I will take your word on it, that this quote exists somewhere online, whether it's from Stillwell or not.
i don't agree with it.


I completely 100% agree----that not exercising dogs can certainly make any behavioral problem worse!! i high-five you there!!

but i disagree a high protein diet in any way causes or excaberates dog-aggression, nor shyness in dogs, either. These are both neurobiological disorders, caused by a recessive gene. (the parents might be 'normal' dogs, and it's usually only one or two of the litter displaying either the shy dog disorder, or the da dog disorder later on, at age 9 mos old)


I freely admit, i am a bit of an odd one, and don't believe everything i read,
especially on the topic of aggressive dogs,
which i feel is a very misunderstood topic.

 

[DaniG]

and wanted to point, the genetic type of dog-aggression, (usually, da dogs LOVE humans) begins to manifest at typically about 9 mos old. There is a little variation on this, but, 9 mos old is usually when the owner realizes "Something is different here in this dog"
and by age 12 mos old, most dogs are in some type of rehab, etc.

And boy does he LOVE people. He is your stereotypical golden retriever when it comes to people.

And when I have looked back, I ACTUALLY started to see it manifest much earlier than his 10 months, but I had hardly any knowledge about dog behavior at the time. Whenever I think back, I remember what should have been a red flag when he was probably 6-7 months old. Whenever a dog would jump up on me at work, he would jump on then, grab them by the scruff of the neck and pull them off of me. At the time I thought it was funny and that he thought he was protecting me (which there is probably some truth to it), but if I knew then what I know now behavior modification and management would have started MUCH sooner.

 

[DaniG]

//but if you google "Jill Zarin High Protein" its the fifth one down//

I will take your word on it, that this quote exists somewhere online, whether it's from Stillwell or not.
i don't agree with it.


I completely 100% agree----that not exercising dogs can certainly make any behavioral problem worse!! i high-five you there!!

but i disagree a high protein diet in any way causes or excaberates dog-aggression, nor shyness in dogs, either. These are both neurobiological disorders, caused by a recessive gene. (the parents might be 'normal' dogs, and it's usually only one or two of the litter displaying either the shy dog disorder, or the da dog disorder later on, at age 9 mos old)


I freely admit, i am a bit of an odd one, and don't believe everything i read,
especially on the topic of aggressive dogs,
which i feel is a very misunderstood topic.

Protein is metabolized as energy, not stored in/as fat. You add more energy to a dog, that energy needs to be used. As you have pointed out, lack of exercise, in other words lack of getting rid of the excess energy, can make behavioral problems worse. So introducing extra energy to a dog that already has too much, or already is not ridding the excess energy, who is already displaying these aggressive tendencies, it makes sense to me that the aggression could be made worse in that scenario.

I don't believe everything I read either (good grief if I believed everything I read I'd be alpha-rolling my dogs!), but that explanation does make sense, to me at least.

And I very much agree that aggressive dogs are highly misunderstood. I can't tell you how many times I see a dog displaying fear-based aggression and the owner tells me that they are being "dominant."

 

[tigerlily46514]

//I would also like to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed this debate/discussion with you. It is very rare that I can have this conversation with someone without anyone getting angry or defensive.//

ME TOO!! Btw, i can totally like a person,
but disagree with a viewpoint of theirs here or there.
Not everyone is capable of that, it's "agree with me or i don't like you any more!!" for some people. but not me.
As a fellow owner of a gangsta dog, i tend to almost automatically feel some level of empathy for those of us who live in a world where almost all dog authorities put forth, the dog-aggressive dog is just not raised well, or not currently managed well, etc,

or the dog-whisperer fans think the human has "secret inner issues" which the dog is manifesting... which is especially adorable, if the human has 3 dogs...what, their other 2 dogs who act normal, are just too dumb to pick up on the human's secret inner issue or what?

everyone has a theory on why some dogs are PERSISTENLY aggressive or PERSISTENTLY shy, i got confused, and overtime, most of the theories made no sense to me after a while........and so i turned to science for better answers. Suddenly, it all began to make sense then!!

I will post that thread, i've promised a handful of ppl i will post the links, and i will just put on my poncho when all the tomatoes get hurled at me for being a heretic who does not buy "the aggressive dog is just raised wrong or being handled wrong."
It is cool that you DO understand my hesitancy, no doubt, i will accidentally honk off some ppl who like to cling to "All or most dogs are born perfect, and if dog has a PERSISTENT aggression or shyness problem, its cuz the human botched it up somehow."
somehow, pointing out the multiple physical differences found in all dog-aggressive dogs studied, and the multiple physical differences found in all shy dogs tested, (it's two different disorders, btw, shy dogs and da dogs)
yet never ever found in one 'normal' dog tested,
is seen as some type of insult to dogdom or something....

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"Protein is metabolized as energy, not stored in/as fat."//


Protein can easily be stored as fat.
go eat about 20 pieces of meat tomorrow,
and every day for about week,
and then weigh yourself.

a calorie is a calorie is a calorie.

i would also predict, at the end of that week, you would not feel hyper at all, and probably very sluggish, despite the protein overload to your system.



BTW, carbs and fats are also metabolized as energy....

 

[tigerlily46514]

<---wins priZe again for most derail ever!!!

MR REMINGTON--------PLEASE FORGIVE US,
AND DO COME BACK!! FEEL FREE TO POST ABOUT YOUR FRIENDS CONCERN ABOUT HOW TO INTRODUCE RAW FEEDING,
or whatever updates, info, questions, etc, you have about your friends dog!!! JUST JUMP IN!!! SORRY
SORRY
SORRY!!!!!!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Mr Remington, are you also absolutely certain fleas are not a problem for this dog, as DaniG wonders???

 

[Mr-Remington]

YOU GUYS LOST ME BACK ON PAGE ONE! I WAS READING EVERYTHING GOING 'WHAT IN GODS NAME ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT!!! She has him on flea medicine and she uses a spray that you put on every few days so she doesn't have wash him. I noticed also that he has the driest skin I have ever seen. Since he has like no fur right now, after being shaved short. I can just pet him and flakes of dead skin falls off.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//she uses a spray that you put on every few days so she doesn't have wash him//


Is there any way the dog could be reacting to that spray? or to the pill she is giving the dog??

 

[tigerlily46514]

and you mentioned back on page one, she has also tried oatmeal shampoo bath? is that right??
this dog sort of sounds like he could use one.....


why does she need to spray him so often for fleas, i wonder?? is she currently battling a round of fleas, or just sprays this stuff on her dog to prevent fleas??

if she is not currently fighting fleas, i'd leave off that spray as a possible skin irritant to the dog???

 

[DaniG]

I completely agree, that there is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree with someone and not allowing that agreement to disagree ruin your opinion of that person (how much woo could a wood chuck chuck? As many times as I managed to use the word "agree" in that sentence )

"Protein can easily be stored as fat.
go eat about 20 pieces of meat tomorrow,
and every day for about week,
and then weigh yourself."

I am about the WORST example, since I have probably the worst diet ever (I eat McDonald's at least once a week, sometimes more... darn them for being walking distance from me!) and yet I still have complete strangers telling me I need to "Eat a hamburger" (which, for the record, is HIGHLY annoying. People have no qualms about making rude comments about how skinny someone is because they think its a "compliment" but it is actually quite insulting, since there is nothing I can do about it. I often think to retort with "Yeah, and you could use one less. Mind if I have yours?" But I just laugh awkwardly because I am too polite)

Regardless (back on track from my little rant), if I am eating said 20 pieces of meat every day for a week, any fat I am packing on would be a result of OTHER things in the meat, not because of the protein. Protein is used for energy and to make muscle, so it would also be likely that I am increasing my muscle mass, but not my fat content. The body does not have a good way of storing excess protein.

 

[DaniG]

Haha, tigerlily, I think we both get that prize

 

[DaniG]

*Following tigerlily's good examply and getting back on track*

I am also wondering how often you are shaving the dog down? Sometimes that can make skin issues worse too

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"The body does not have a good way of storing excess protein."//



SURE IT DOES!!

your being naturally skinny aside,
take most any human,
or any creature,
and feed them whatever form of pure protein you want to feed,
leanest meat you can find,
and feed them TOO much,
the body does store too many calories, as body fat.

and no, the creature won't become aggressive from too much protein.


I can post links if you truly disagree too many calories as body fat?????????? (from WHATEVER source, be it carbs, fats or protein)

A CALORIE IS A CALORIE IS A CALORIE!!!!!!!

the source of the calorie, or the original form of the calorie, does not matter at all down at the molecular level-----the overdose of protein WILL be stored as fat!!


If your theory was true,
we'd all have excess proteins circulating in our bloodstreams, instead of big hips then, if we ate too much lean meat!!
or too much dog kibble with too high of protein in it, or whatever it is you are saying...
but we do not!! Our bodies regulate how much proteins are in our bloodstreams within a fairly strict window, and boy, are our kidneys glad of THAT fact!!

or we'd all have giant muscles, instead of round tummies or big hips if we ate too much protein, (or high protein dog kibble) which so easily provably false. EXCESS CALORIES from any source, are stored as FAT.
HOWEVER, many americans do wish your theory was true, that if we only ate too much protein, we'd either get giant muscles or be hyperactive, etc.
but, it's not the case.

SORRY AGAIN, now back to our regularly scheduled topic, "Mr Remington's Friend's Dog's Skin Problem".

 

[DaniG]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, because I can cite sources that clearly say that the body cannot store protein easily. I do agree that excess carbs, fats, etc are stored as fat. Carbs and proteins are completely different, comprising of different molecular compounds - Proteins are made from amino acids, while carbs are made from sugars - and therefore are metabolized/broken down completely different. Carbs are easily broken down, used and stored, while proteins are much harder to break down. The bonds holding them together are much different. What they become when they are broken down are much different. But I am thinking that molecular chemistry/biology/whatever science it would fall under is WAY more off-topic than we were getting already

 

[tigerlily46514]

lol, do just jump back in Mr Remi,
why does your friend spray this stuff onto the dog so often? is she currently battling fleas at this time, or just trying to prevent fleas by the frequent spraying?

i'd bet, even the bottle would (or should) say "discontinue use if skin becomes irritated"....

it is not impossible, that this dog's skin eruptions are even result of the anti-flea meds she is using, too...

 

[DaniG]

lol, do just jump back in Mr Remi,
.

Yes, I have a feeling we will both be easily distracted from our current debate, just as we easily strayed from the topic of this thread