Cesar Millan: Love Him, Hate Him, And Why?

JazzyandVeronica

JazzyandVeronica

Honored Member
Well I'm a tad late to the party, but these are my thoughts on Milan: overall I don't really care for him.

The positives are: he empasizes exercise, maintaining a calm demeamor and having expectations of your dog - rules and boundaries, not letting it run amock.

The negatives: I really dislike his reliance on flooding with fearful dogs and I think it tends to be a quick pseudo fix that really doesn't solve the problem, I think he promotes dominance theory which has been debunked and I think he relies too heavily on heavy handed, corrective measures as a first line of defense...some of which as has been mentioned borders on/equals abuse..and I am not a positive only trainer...I am a "whatever the situation calls for to maintain everyone's safety using the least amount of physical force to get the job done" trainer. So obviously things like tricks and fun things are always positive only; but other safety related issues...I would consider corrections once it was clear that the dog learned the behaviors through positive training methods and was clear what was expected.
 
MaryK

MaryK

Honored Member
Mutt said:
quoting myself from the thread Adrianna&Calvin had already linked to.


How you can keep them apart:
positive: adding something to the situation
negative: taking something away from the situation
reinforcement: when you want the dog to offer the behavior more often
punishment: when you want the dog to offer the behavior less often

maybe an idea to make a seperate threat with this info (in general dog training) and making it a sticky? (just a thought ;))
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Dogster, short succinct description excellent(y):)

I agree, this does need to be a new sticky thread.

It's good for everyone here and would also be excellent for anyone new joining.(n):)
 
Pawbla

Pawbla

Experienced Member
southerngirl said:
Thanks, that helps me understand it better.:) So when me and my friend leave the room because her dog is jumping and biting us it's negative reinforcement, because the dog is like "why are you leaving" but after a few times they associate you leaving with their jumping and biting so they stop. Is that right?
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Actually, negative punishment again, I believe, since the behaviour is diminished because you subtract a good thing :).
 
milesfullofsmiles

milesfullofsmiles

Well-Known Member
I actually think I remember reading that a while ago! It was the article that got me thinking that Cesar wasn't perfect. I used to LOVE him. Now I'm a lot more reserved.
 
Adrianna & Calvin

Adrianna & Calvin

Experienced Member
There are two arguments that extra-specially get my goat, and they are both reflected in the comments after that article. The first is that he works with the "worst" dogs and that all of these happy positive people just work with puppies and sunflower-sunshine dogs who probably don't even need training, they are so easy and perfect. Do you know who works with the worst dogs? Veterinary behaviorists. And guess what, they don't use groin kicks, etc. because those methods don't get good results. These are scientists, results-oriented people, not interested in scattering rose petals and cooing. They want to do XYZ so that the dog will/will not do ZYX.

My friend is a CPDT who works closely with the local DVM behaviorist (DACVB) and she gets referred the 'worst of the worst.' The "has already bit someone/killed another dog/etc." cases. She doesn't use shock, or choke chains, or flooding, because the results suck.

This leads me to the second annoying argument, which is that it is somehow closed-minded to discount the use of certain methods. As if, because I won't even try using a shock collar, I can't speak about how good or bad it is. Well, I ain't a cultural relativist. I think it's wrong to use shock collars, I think it's wrong to tell your kids they are stupid, I think it's wrong to throw a dog or a child into water and say "SWIM!" and I am perfectly comfortable making moral judgements as I see them.

I was in Mexico a few years ago with some classmates and we visited a deep, watery pit where the ancient Mayans used to throw a little girl every year to ensure a good harvest. The tour guide said, We can't judge them for their beliefs, it was a different time, they truly thought the good of the village depended on this sacrifice. I say uh-uh, tossing a child into that dark hell of a place is never ok. And why do you think they stopped tossing a child into that pit? Because someone (probably a mother) said heck no, my little one isn't going into that abyss. It's never ok to throw a child off a cliff. It just isn't. I don't need to throw a child off a cliff, or live in ancient Mayan times, to judge that. (I heartily acknowledge that, had I lived in ancient Mayan times, there may be extreme social pro-pit pressure. It doesn't mean it was right, or that everyone truly believed it was right.) Ergo I am perfectly capable of using my big human brain to decide for myself what I believe is ethically right, and what is scientifically valuable, and I am able to do this based on second-hand information. I don't need to be the remote-holder or the kid-pusher to judge.

Anyway, just had to vent ... so tired of hearing the same b.s. !
 
jackienmutts

jackienmutts

Honored Member
Wish I could hit "like" a few times!!! Or better .. wish there were a "love" button!! (y):love::D

I was fortunate and honored enough to attend a Patricia McConnell seminar hosted by our training facility a couple years ago. She mentioned at that time that Cesar had been invited (apparently a few times) to attend some huge conference/big meeting of the great dog minds (where big behaviorists would be - wish I could be specific but I can't remember which one) - and he declined. Figures, eh? She said she truly wanted to sit down and talk with him and really find out why he was so opposed to moving toward positive methods, and even discussing issues with them, why his mind seemed so closed to science ... but sadly, it looks like that will never happen.
 
Dogster

Dogster

Honored Member
I hate reading the comments under that article, or the comments under the video of Cesar Millan kicking dogs. It makes me sick.:sick: I went through pages of comments on the dog-kicking video, and there were only like 1 or 2 comments on how positive reinforcement is better, but there wasn't a single comment on how positive reinforcement can also fix dogs with agression issues, fear issues, or guarding issues.:mad: It's just sick, to think how many people admire Millan, and, in what is supposed to be a new era for dog training, how many people still use traditional methods. I wish that at least people were open to positive training.:( Sigh...
 
jackienmutts

jackienmutts

Honored Member
I read lots of comments, then had to stop cuz I just couldn't read any more. I think you need to keep a few things in mind. First and foremost, remember that he's a "tv personality" and to some, because of that, whatever he says, goes. Celebrity status speaks volumes to many. There are so many people who have never been to a class or read a dog book, but they watch this guy from their living room couch, who proclaims to be a dog whisperer and oh my goodness, he's magic, he knows how to rehabilitate dogs, and train people, and fix red zone dogs, and he's their last hope. Well, "red zone" is a term he made up - but only he knows that. And is he really these dogs' last hope? To his fans, it's gospel truth. If Cesar says it, it must be true.

I also think that loads of positive reinforcement folks just don't bother to argue with his fans in comment sections after his videos anymore. Why bother? It's like bucking up against an entourage. Personally I know I never have. I can't make an argument worth anything in a couple sentences. It's not worth my time or frustration. I do remember back a few years ago, some of the arguments would get really heated, really heated.

But I can make my arguments by example and one by one, out in the world. So Dogster, don't feel the heat from the comments. Take that instead as a challenge to find one "Cesar person" out there, and change their minds. Thing is, it's hard, and it's gotta be done slowly, and with an armload of facts and a turnaround in their dog. I've done it tho, and it's a great feeling. And once you've changed one, you know that person will go change someone else, and then go off to find someone else. :)
 
Dogster

Dogster

Honored Member
Really well said, thanks jackie.:) I wish I could like your post more than once.:D

jackienmutts said:
Take that instead as a challenge to find one "Cesar person" out there, and change their minds. Thing is, it's hard, and it's gotta be done slowly, and with an armload of facts and a turnaround in their dog. I've done it tho, and it's a great feeling. And once you've changed one, you know that person will go change someone else, and then go off to find someone else. :)
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That should go for everyone.:) We could change everyone's thinking, one dog owner at a time.

As much as I want to comment, I know I shouldn't, cuz it really won't help the situation. I would just be broken down by all his fans anyways. :cautious: I forgot of course about celebrity worship syndrome. :rolleyes: Whatever he says, is true, and no one can dare to argue with it.
 
milesfullofsmiles

milesfullofsmiles

Well-Known Member
One person had it right. He said, "Clicker training with positive reinforcement is the way to go!" (second comment.)
But that was the only sentence that I think was definitely correct in his comment.
Because then, he said "But, show me how a clicker trainer can calm down the high energy or crazy dogs when they are in "attack mode". There aren't other ways than Cesar's one to handle dogs during attacks."

But, I tend to disagree. Really, I think the reason that many of these dogs are in a "high energy" or "crazy state" is because of how they are approached. I believe that Cesar comes off as too dominant and forceful, therefore putting many dogs in a nervous and unsure state. The consequences are an unapproachable, wary dog(s) from the start of "rehabilitation."
 
MaryK

MaryK

Honored Member
bekah1001 said:
The high energy dog comment reminded me of this video from kikopup
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Love the vid:love:(y) Clicker training was the ONLY thing which worked with Ra Kismet after the dog attack and he's also an extremely high energy, high voltage dog! Without clicker training (and all the help on this forum:D) I hate to think where I would be with him now:eek::(
 
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