Trick Challenge: Stand Tall Back To Back

[kassidybc]

Ideally your video should show:

1. Your dog doing stand tall/beg before you try to train it behind you, so we can see how confident all our dogs are with the ground work.
2. Part of your first training session showing how you set about training.
3. The final trick repeated 3 times in the same clip - you might want to think about how you would transition to and from this trick in a freestyle routine and show that in this clip too :-)

But as you haven't started yet that is okay, just start with where you are now. We are all just getting back into the idea of trick challenges

Alright, thanks. I'll start recording now.

 

[running_dog]

I've been getting nowhere with this for a few days, Zac will sort of stand tall behind me if I get him in position but getting him into position is a nightmare.

This is the dog who can't sit straight in front of me let alone behind me, so I tried my training on from peekaboo idea and have made zero progress as he is so convinced of peekaboo he won't move far enough unless he is lured and then he doesn't get it at all and gazes soulfully at the treat like it is an exercise in self control then shuffles forward in 3 stages on his backside . Spinning him into position does not work as he still doesn't understand so he goes into reverse round and round my legs and won't stop until I leap out of the way and then he looks desperately confused when I don't reward him .

Finally today I think I've figured out how to explain it to him, Starting with him in front of me I say "Zac, you got my back?" and then "go through" so he runs through rather than stalling in peekaboo and I click just as he clears my heels. This actually seems to have worked as he has just started to run through without waiting for "go through" but now I have to figure out how to get him to stop-sit in the right position, still we're past the completely stumped stage!

What DID work was getting him to stand up in front of me, he's transferred that (and sit up) to behind me with a lot more confidence than I could have hoped - though it is still a bit random which he will give me and I'm not asking for duration at all at least we have something to show for our efforts.

 

[Ripleygirl]

Running_dog you sound like you are getting a lot further than me at the mo. My issue is that Ripley just does not want to be back to back with me, she will do it happily with my back to her and her facing my back but not round the other way..!

 

[running_dog]

Ripleygirl I think there are three possibilities for your stand tall problem, I've listed them here with some ideas of how I'd tackle them - but I'm no expert

a) Most likely is she is depending on being able to see you so it is probably just a matter of proofing her stand tall - so she learns she can do what you say when she can't see you. Have you tried with her sitting in front of you but facing away? Then ask for a sit up and beg, then when she is comfortable with that a stand tall. It helped Zac because he was then not looking at me but I could see what help he needed. The only thing is that he can knock me backwards when he stands tall in front of me however Zac found working behind me much easier after a couple of sessions doing this. Then work on sit back to back, then sit up, then stand tall.

b) Rather than hearing your verbal cue she is taking a body cue from you that tells her to stand tall and you are unconscious of giving it to her. I don't think this is likely because the cue would have to work whether she was looking at your front or your back but it is a possibility. It is a matter of keeping still and giving her a verbal cue and then luring her a second later if she doesn't respond until she gets that the verbal cue means the trick (You'll know that already)

c) Also unlikely but possible is that she is depending on you for support - I don't know how secure she is with stand tall but even if she isn't actually resting on you she is may be like when you have first learnt to swim and you stay really close to the side of the pool in case you need to grab the rail! I'd just practice stand tall in different positions and click as soon as she rises up without asking for duration. Zac used to like facing me so he could stab out a paw (usually muddy) for support if he felt unsteady but he has got more comfortable with it now he just leans backwards into me and I end up staggering.

 

[kassidybc]

My parents are going on vacation, so we will be boarding Chloe, and I will be staying at a friend's. So unless Chloe "gets it" before this Sunday (when my parents leave) then I probably won't be able to accomplish this trick with her by the deadline. Although my friend who I am staying with has a golden who I have been training, so I may try to work on this with him while I am there (although I would probably teach the sit pretty back to back instead of stand tall).

 

[running_dog]

Running_dog you sound like you are getting a lot further than me at the mo. My issue is that Ripley just does not want to be back to back with me, she will do it happily with my back to her and her facing my back but not round the other way..!

Sorry Ripleygirl, in my previous reply I forgot that you are working on sit up and beg back to back...I think most of the ideas would still work. I hope your ankle is getting better .

 

[running_dog]

My parents are going on vacation, so we will be boarding Chloe, and I will be staying at a friend's. So unless Chloe "gets it" before this Sunday (when my parents leave) then I probably won't be able to accomplish this trick with her by the deadline. Although my friend who I am staying with has a golden who I have been training, so I may try to work on this with him while I am there (although I would probably teach the sit pretty back to back instead of stand tall).

Saturday is really my deadline too though I may post the video on the Monday deadline, it is only a couple of days before the real deadline so we can just post how far we've got to - it is okay to post where you got up to rather than the finished trick - we can always post the finished version later. I know it was a short deadline this time (less than 2 weeks).

From what you said in the other thread I wonder if you do a little work with Chloe on sit pretty back to back and also stand tall with her standing in front of you but facing away you might get the breakthrough you are looking for - it's about explaining rather than repetition.

Maybe you are not falling into the same trap as me but I was just doing the same thing over and over with Zac and making no progress not because he is stupid but because he thought he already knew what I wanted. Albert Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results," and that was the trap I was falling into, dogs don't need a repeated explanation so much as they need the right explanation. When you have the right explanation you will be seeing progress however small.

 

[kassidybc]

Saturday is really my deadline too though I may post the video on the Monday deadline, it is only a couple of days before the real deadline so we can just post how far we've got to - it is okay to post where you got up to rather than the finished trick - we can always post the finished version later. I know it was a short deadline this time (less than 2 weeks).

From what you said in the other thread I wonder if you do a little work with Chloe on sit pretty back to back and also stand tall with her standing in front of you but facing away you might get the breakthrough you are looking for - it's about explaining rather than repetition.

Maybe you are not falling into the same trap as me but I was just doing the same thing over and over with Zac and making no progress not because he is stupid but because he thought he already knew what I wanted. Albert Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results," and that was the trap I was falling into, dogs don't need a repeated explanation so much as they need the right explanation. When you have the right explanation you will be seeing progress however small.

Very good advice, thank you very much!

 

[Ripleygirl]

Ripleygirl I think there are three possibilities for your stand tall problem, I've listed them here with some ideas of how I'd tackle them - but I'm no expert

a) Most likely is she is depending on being able to see you so it is probably just a matter of proofing her stand tall - so she learns she can do what you say when she can't see you. Have you tried with her sitting in front of you but facing away? Then ask for a sit up and beg, then when she is comfortable with that a stand tall. It helped Zac because he was then not looking at me but I could see what help he needed. The only thing is that he can knock me backwards when he stands tall in front of me however Zac found working behind me much easier after a couple of sessions doing this. Then work on sit back to back, then sit up, then stand tall.

b) Rather than hearing your verbal cue she is taking a body cue from you that tells her to stand tall and you are unconscious of giving it to her. I don't think this is likely because the cue would have to work whether she was looking at your front or your back but it is a possibility. It is a matter of keeping still and giving her a verbal cue and then luring her a second later if she doesn't respond until she gets that the verbal cue means the trick (You'll know that already)

c) Also unlikely but possible is that she is depending on you for support - I don't know how secure she is with stand tall but even if she isn't actually resting on you she is may be like when you have first learnt to swim and you stay really close to the side of the pool in case you need to grab the rail! I'd just practice stand tall in different positions and click as soon as she rises up without asking for duration. Zac used to like facing me so he could stab out a paw (usually muddy) for support if he felt unsteady but he has got more comfortable with it now he just leans backwards into me and I end up staggering.

Thank you Running_dog - I do think a) is the most likely too. I will try the sitting in front of me but her facing away tonight and see if that makes a difference, then go from there. Thank you!

 

[Ripleygirl]

Sorry Ripleygirl, in my previous reply I forgot that you are working on sit up and beg back to back...I think most of the ideas would still work. I hope your ankle is getting better .

Not to worry! Ankle is getting better, thank you! Torn my ligaments so it is just taking time... Missing mine and Ripley's walks though, although my partner has been brill doing all the walks with her and I still get to do trick training. I have also been working on her toy drive, which is good!

 

[southerngirl]

Here is Missy's and Piper's 3rd training session of Stand tall.

 

[kassidybc]

Here is Missy's and Piper's 3rd training session of Stand tall.

Nice job Danielle! They are doing great! Piper is getting so big!

 

[southerngirl]

Nice job Danielle! They are doing great! Piper is getting so big!

Thank you. And yes Piper has gotten big. When standing on two feet she's close to being as tall as me I'm 5ft.3in

 

[kassidybc]

Here is how far we have gotten with standing back to back. Not perfect yet, but we are still working on it. I'm not going to be able to work with Chloe any more today or tomorrow, so this is my "submission" to the trick challenge.

 

[running_dog]

Here is Missy's and Piper's 3rd training session of Stand tall.

People starting to post videos... now it's really starting to get exciting.

Piper is gorgeous (and Missy too of course, it's just Piper is new to me). I love the way they take turns so well and how you broke the trick down into little stages to get them used to you being out of sight.

Only the 3rd session? They are doing really well - and you've made time to train both of them, I've just played around with this trick with Gus and not properly trained it.

 

[running_dog]

Here is how far we have gotten with standing back to back. Not perfect yet, but we are still working on it. I'm not going to be able to work with Chloe any more today or tomorrow, so this is my "submission" to the trick challenge.

Wow Kassidy you've moved Chloe on a long way and fast, she has made some amazing progress in 2 days to get over her wall dependence - she's just a couple of tiny steps away from having this trick sorted . Do post another video of her when you get to finish the training!

Something I've noticed with Zac on the crookedness is I have to try and reward with alternate left and right hands because he's got unbalanced in this trick too and it's because he's twisting round to my right hand for the reward. It feels really weird to hold treats in my left hand .

 

[648117]

I just saw this thread.

I'll see if I can get Holly to do this trick some time this week. Although it wont be so much of a "back-to-back" as a "back-to-back of my knees"

 

[running_dog]

Well this is how far Zac and I have got to in the 12 days.

Sorry the video is so long, I could have cropped the last section more but it shows quite clearly where we are at so I left it unedited, Hopefully I'll post again when he has this trick sorted .

He needs to get a bit more comfortable with the body cue and start to link going through-sit-stand tall. Maybe then he'll realise he needs to go a bit further through. As for me maybe my "Stop" is a bit negative, I'll have to work on that. Zac is quite difficult to interrupt once he gets an idea in his head but there must be a better way. Also I used "through" which confused him at one point.

 

[Ripleygirl]

I have never uploaded video before and my computer is saying no! I can play my video but when I try to upload to youtube it says it is going to take 92 mins for a video that is about 2 mins long! I tried to upload on facebook and it tell me my videos are above the limit. Has anyone any idea what I can do? I don't seem to be able to make the files smaller on my camera prior to uploading. HELP!

 

[running_dog]

Hi Ripleygirl - Have you got any kind of video editing program on your computer? What program plays your home video on your computer?