Training collars

[love siberians]

Hi

those who are against the ecoller please swollow you pride for a day and seek some one out who trains with them. untill recently i was totaly against them, however after a 4 day event held for trainers i had one straped to my neck (yes not my arm my neck) this model had 120 leavels i couldn't feal it untill the 20th leavel and then it felt like two sewing needles lightly scraping the skin. at leavel 60 it felt like when the doc uses a pin to asses your nerve reflexes.

i was told the trainer rearly goes above leavel 28 with dogs as it isn't needed, i didn't beleave their could be and results with in a dog and mentioned to him to proove it, he asked for my dog.

i placed the ecoller on my dog with direct instruction to not go above the leavel of correction i had receved.

my dog was responding to stimulation leavel of 12 i couldn't feal it at that leavel at all. this trainer worked wonders with my dog i watched him like a hawlk he never raised the stimulation, and in the end decreased it as the dog was not needing it at that leavel, as he learnd what to expect the leavel whent down.

their was no sign of distress with the dog, is working attitude increased as he worked harder and gained more rewards for correct tricks/behavioures and learn't quickly that i was the treat despecner and all he needed to do was do the rewarded action.

as mentioned i was against it now i'm not however i fel their should be strict requirments for the persion wishing to use it. as some one mentioned how many people miss timing with a clicker.

please don't blame the tool blame the stupid persion in control of that tool. people misuse flat collers, halty type collers, chec chaines, harneses and well any thing you can place on a dog can harm that dog if a irasponcable persion is in control of it

 

[summitbc]

Well thanks to everyone who has taken time to provide input on the e-collar. I did go ahead and buy one, have been training Summit, and he's responded beautifully. I no longer feel he will run after cars or passers by, human or pet, because of it. The grass CAN be greener on the other side for a BC if he's curious enought, IMHO. He loves his family to pieces, but he also loves the chase, as much.

Whether it be his age, 15 months, or his ability to learn from the collar, he has respect for it and I feel okay the small amount we've had to use it on him.

 

[mysomerdai]

I'll be the unpopular one here, but I have to agree with zcoonhound. I prefer to call it an e-collar rather than a 'shock' collar. Slip chains are far more dangerous to dogs by causing tracheal bruising and and residual soreness. E-collars do none of this.

I encourage anyone who is completely opposed to any method/collar to try one out on yourself. There are always people that abuse equipment (including the oh so favored haltis that everyone is gaga over). I don't use anything on my dogs that I have not personally tested.

When used properly, an e-collar feels like a tingle, or the sting you get from a statically charged wool shirt in winter. It is enough to get your attention, but it isn't terrible and the second the stimulation is turned off there is no residual sensation. The collar is like an invisible back up leash, there to 'check' your dog when it completely blows you off. You should ALWAYS begin training on a leash, then distraction training, then off leash, then off leash distraction. Only then should an e-collar be used as a back up method and should be introduced slowly so that the dog understands that the e-collar is controlled by you and is like a leash. Even the best trained dog in the world will find something that it wants to chase more than it wants your praise. For the dog's own safety, it is better in my opinion to have a back up plan (the collar) that you hopefully don't have to use rather than a dead dog who got lost or hit by a car.

My dogs are happy to put on their collars because they know that it's time for an off leash hike in the woods. And the funny thing is that no matter how long I work them to accept the haltis, they just HATE them with a passion and hide.

 

[makakoa]

Well, I concede that there may be times that an ECollar is useful and important, but those situations are few and far between for the average dog owner. I agree with Zcoonhound that with her trail riding situation, the use of the collar is probably warranted.

However, unless you have excellent timing and control of your own emotions and actions
(don't use it for punishment or "revenge," don't hit the button as the dog is turning toward you, etc.) you would be better off avoiding problems by leashing your dog in traffic danger areas, and working on good recalls in protected areas until he is reliable. (However, as reliable as my dog is on recall, I do not allow her off lead in any area that could possibly be dangerous. Dogs are animals, they are at least somewhat unpredictable on their best day, and she is too precious to me to take even the slightest chance with her safety and well being.)

If you do decide that an Ecollar is necessary, I strongly advise you to consult with a certified behaviorist before making your final decision, and to obtain the best instruction in safe and effective use of this device. You don't want to accidentally create new problems!

Good luck.

 

[tanis60617]

I know that i will kind of be the black sheep for writing this but if good discretion and common since is used I think that an e-collar is much more humane than most other types of corrections. I don't currently use one on my dog anymore as he doesn't need it, but I did at one time. First I tried it on myself and found that at the lower levels it was almost a vibration.and in the upper levels it was like a static pop. The Very high level hurt but i never used those on Paisley. Our training started with a lot of research and talking to people who knew what they were talking about. I was taught to use the lowest setting just to disrupt his train of thought. Such as he loves children but sometimes got a little hyper. I would give a weak correction as he charged to them and he would stop a look around. At which point i could tell him to sit and let the child come to him. Honestly I feel that was a more humane correction than even have to pull back at his leash and let him choke himself. I know people consider it abuse and I am deeply offended to be told that. Paisley is my best bud and I would never do hurt him. The other thing to point out is when the button is released there is no residual pain but yanking on a lead and things of that nature could cause bruising. My dog is definately not a broken dog. On the contrary, he is a boisterous ball of life. And he wouldn't begin to understand the word abused or mistreated. I understand that e-collars aren't for everyone and thats okay but they are a great tool when used correctly. I just hate the stigma that goes with them when some owners are using them purely to, in the end, erich the dogs life. Congrats to those of you who don't need them but I think on this subject people should politely agree to disagree. I am not directing this to anyone on this forum as everyone is alway polite. But I was asked about dog training the other day and then told how abusive i was to my dog, for using an ecollar. When I asked the woman where her dog was at that moment she told me at home tied to a tree. Now how am i abusive when my dog can go to work with me and spend time with me while her dog is home tied to the tree.

 

[dat123]

I'm very much against harsh methodes to train dogs, whether it be tricks, dog sport or whatever, especially choke chains ( or 'check chains' as they now call them ), have never owned one, and will never put one over my dogs neck !
However, with the eCollar I'm still 'sitting on the fence' with that one. Been reading a lot about them in the last 6 months, from being extremley cruel, to, they are fine and work very well.
I'm at my wits end with Talin and his agility, I cannot control him from a distance, as he sprints around the course doing his own thing. So I started considering the eCollar as a last resort, being reluctant because of it's bad publicity, I mentioned it to my agility instructer, who then told me about a similiar collar that actually has a loud noise from the remote, instead of an electric shock. Apparently you can also record your voice into it, like "aHHH" or " NO".
I've yet to find where I can buy it. But it sounds like a better alternative to the eCollar.
If anyone has any experience with this, particularly with agility, I would love to hear about it.

 

[tanis60617]

most of the ecollars that i looked at before purchasing mine had a beep sound. I know it isn't a voice recording but it might work.

 

[ruffmuttk9z]

I realize that this subject is a little old but I simply could not overlook it and had to add my two cents. For the record, I'm not looking for an argument. But this subject of shock collars really gets my hackles up. More and more of these "remote" training schools are cropping up and it just makes me sick to my stomach. What ever happened to good old fashioned TRAINING?!

I have put one on to feel the level of signal which my dog responds to and it is not pain, it is like getting a "spark" after scuffing along a rung in socked feet.

I don't know about you, but if I had the choice about whether to endure the this "spark" after scuffing along a rug or to not endure it, I would choose the latter. If my mother told me "do the dishes or I will shock you" I would do the dishes. If she then proceeded to shock me quicker and quicker each time she asked me to do the dishes I would in turn do the dishes faster and faster to avoid the PUNISHMENT or CORRECTION. It's not a reminder, it's a correction, a punishment, whatever you want to call it. But it is NOT a reminder. What you're calling a reminded is the beep, I presume, that precludes the actual shock. So yes, it is a reminder. A reminder that "if you don't comply, you will be shocked." I know my mom wants me to do the dishes, true. But I guarantee you I'd do the dishes a whole heck of a lot faster if my mom told me she would give me $10 when I was done than if she said she'd shock me if I didn't do them. Then, when the dishes were done we'd both be happy. She'd have her dishes done and I'd have my $10. If she had to threaten me with a shock to do the dishes, she'd be happy and feel like "God" when the dishes were done and I'd be afraid to make my next move for fear she'd ask me to do something else or else be shocked.

I took a 12 week course with my dog to learn how to use it. The trainer could see he was training ME more than my dog - who had excellent foundational skills (knew commands) already from a year of lure training.

Good for you for taking a training class on how to use the collar, or rather, how to place corrections properly. That's all it is. With any correction OR reward based training program, it's all. about. timing. Place the reward OR correction at the wrong time and the dog learns nothing. The only thing different about a positive, or rewards-based, training program and a negative, or corrections-based training program is that a positively-trained dog is performing the behavior in ANTICIPATION OF A REWARD. The negatively-trained dog is performing the behavior to AVOID THE CORRECTION.

It took three signals to stop my dog from eating poop. Properly timed, properly volumed (strength not too high). He doesn't look at it any more - nor sneak it, nor eat it. Period.

I don't think I would look at pizza again either if I knew I would be shocked for doing it.

That is an example of behavior modification.

True. It is an example of behavior modification. Aversive, negative, punishment-based behavior modification.

First lure the dog to complete the command. I often use a clicker during this phase. About 30 times of perfect completion - no matter how boring (and not all at once necessarily)... then phase in the command word(s)... get another 30 successes... Then, unless distractions increase, say the command (and here the schools separate) once then signal from the collar and repeat the command. Some schools say - send a signal with the first command else you are teaching your dog to wait for it... the first school feels you will not send a signal unless necessary.. the second feels you are upping the speed of response time on the command an increasing the likelihood of compliance every time...

The first half of your program (bolded by me) is exactly the same as a rewards-based, clicker training program only nowhere do I see that the dog is actually rewarded for it's successful completion 30 times in a row. Why not proceed to upping the ante by only rewarding the behavior you want? IE, if you're looking for a faster sit, jackpot the quicker sits. Ignore the slower ones. Why couple the command with a threat (beep)? This training program seems absolutely terrifying to me. The dog is acting only out of fear of being shocked. Why on earth would a dog continue to perform a behavior if there were no reward? Oh, I remember. Because if it doesn't it gets shocked.

My dog no longer needs it on unless we are going to a new place or there are going to be LOTS of distractions at a place he knows.

Check it out. Here's my dogs. All ELEVEN of them. Off leash, in a new place. And none of them have ever even WORN a shock collar. Unbelievable, right? I'm not trying to say "I'm better than you." I'm trying to say that there are POSITIVE ways to correct unwanted behavior without the use of an aversive tool such as a shock collar.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB_l_WlZ6Cg[/media]

For the dog I use it on, it has made the world make sense. The world now works for him... he knows he is safe and he knows he does not have to pre-empt any other dogs (I do not allow that behavior), and he knows that in a down next to me, NOTHING will happen to him - no signal, no dog attack (I would put myself between him and anyone).

Of course it's made the world make sense to him but I wouldn't necessarily say that's a good thing in this situation. The dog is thinking "As long as I don't hear a beep, I'm good, doo, doo, doo, beep, Ohhh...bad, bad, bad, don't do that, will get shocked, do something else!" Then, over time the dog learns which behaviors will earn the beep and which ones won't and the undesireable behaviors diminish. It DOES work, I won't deny that. But the concept is PUNISHMENT-based. There are no ifs, ans or buts about that. In contrast, a positively-trained dog's mind works the opposite. "What can I do to earn a reward, does this work, no, does this work, no, what about this. YAY! I heard a click!!"

BTW - his weaves sped up considerably when I began signaling (low volume) ON all commands: he has made the "transition" to "I (As the dog) can stop the signal by complying quickly."

Ugh, the use of a shock collar in agility training makes me want to vomit. THREATENING your dog to do the weaves? Honestly. Is this a common practice? I train five of my eleven dogs in agility and I've NEVER seen this method used. Congrats that your dog has faster weaves! I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing my dog is only weaving faster in order to avoid a correction, not because he necessarily WANTS to weave faster.

That's my two (or ten) centsworth. Fire away.

 

[Jean Cote]

Hello,

This is an old discussion thread, but I am thinking that new members might get the wrong idea by reading it.

So ... I want to remind everybody that the Dog Trick Academy DOES NOT endorse or use training/shocking collars.

Our classroom lessons are designed to be positive and fun. We use things like food, toys and praise that gets the dog to voluntarily work for us, without any force involved. Our objective is to help you create a lasting relationship with your dog, one built on genuine trust and love. The tricks are after all, not important when compared to the bond created by positive training.

Thank you.

 

[ruffmuttk9z]

I knew that. I can tell by the way your dog acts and reacts to you in your videos. Not to mention your haldful of treats.

 

[Jean Cote]

Ah, it was not oriented at you - just in general. :dogsmile:

LOL. My best "trick" to date is when I call my dogs from outside and they spring up and run inside like their life depended on it. This was all done by using treats. :dogsmile:

 

[ella]

That's exactly what I think.... if you are a good trainer, you don't need to use aversive methods. Yes it may be, that it takes more time... so what?

greetings

Ella

 

[tigerlily46514]

Ooh, i don't like shock collars. at all. I agree with post above.=my 2 cents.