Tantrum Big Time Over Reaction

[MaryK]

Well Ra Kismet must think it's fun to over react. But YEAH we'll have fun too, It will be a good experience, because it gives Ra Kismet a chance to learn appropriate behavor and realize it's EVEN MORE FUN to behave, be well mannered and get more adoring fans

 

[jackienmutts]

Just read your reply, more later, am very short on time now --- but just had to post an article by Dr. Sophia Yin (a FABULOUS renowned behaviorist) on Dominance. Perhaps you can share this with your partner, it's certainly lots of food for thought.
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/?/dominance.php

There are several videos in the article, one shows her work with a dog-reactive dog. Clearly not the issue you have with your boy, but it might give you some ideas on how to work with him for a while til he calms down upon the sight of another dog. More later, must run....

 

[MaryK]

Thank you Jackiemutts , have downloaded and bookmarked the site. Just read the FIRST paragraph at present (have a lot of Dog threads to check, it's early morning here) and quickly at this point it sounds like what she is saying is what I have ALWAYS believed - that the domination training isn't good for dogs. Funny, I have NEVER believed in it, and got into 'hot water' so many times, now it looks like what I have ALWAYS believed is becoming the 'normal way to train'. I didn't use a clicker, don't recall them being around at the time, but I DID train Zeus and Tiger Lily with POSITIVE reinforcement only - even at their dog school, which at the time was a very good one. And NEITHER had any problems, even though Tiger Lily was, when I first got her, so nervous she splatted in the street and even treats/toys wouldn't budge her. She quickly became a VERY confident little lassie, never overly pushy with being friendly with strangers, the 'quiet achiever' type but NEVER afraid either

I think my interest in American Indians and their culture may have been why I never believed in the Western way with all animals. They treat their dogs as part of the family and respect all living creatures and do NOT think they are a sub-specie.

This is going to be my 'morning read' Today's the 'big day' Evie is going to help Ra Kismet, so will read before we meet Will share with partner, there's a slight improvement there with him - wish he was as smart and learned as quickly as Ra Kismet. But Ra Kismet loves me and they say Love Conquers All

 

[curls139]

Good luck Mary K fingers crossed for you!! let us know how it goes and if the leash holding is useful thats great too

 

[MaryK]

Quickie, am watching/reading the site - Cesar Millan, who my partner thinks is fantastic, sorry it's making me feel sick, because in the Emily Pit bull Video THIS IS EXACTLY what my partner did to Ra Kismet and Emily's reaction is EXACTLY what Ra did back - sickening!

Watching Podee, WHAT a difference. Back to reading/viewing and a cuppa I feel sick.

 

[MaryK]

Good luck Mary K fingers crossed for you!! let us know how it goes and if the leash holding is useful thats great too

Thank you Curls, will do

 

[jackienmutts]

Have another article you may want to share with your partner. Victoria Stillwell beautifully explains why food (or let's say rewards ... be it toys, praise, whatever is a fabulous reward for any particular dog) works WAY better than punishment and/or dominance in dog training. Go Victoria!! http://positively.com/2012/05/14/why-positive-training-is-not-bribery/ Maybe he could start watching a bit more "It's Me Or The Dog" and a bit less Cesar. I know, wishful thinking ... but miracles do happen! Positive Reinfocement training has years of science to back up everything - Cesar has himself, and his own declarations as "a dog whisperer" - and that's all. *sigh* Still, I know he makes for good tv (for some) as he's very charming and charismatic -- altho I believe that anyone who understands dog behavior and dog body language can barely stomach watching the show. Watching it with no sound is unnerving and makes me sad.

Can't wait to hear how tomorrow goes! Good luck!!!

 

[MaryK]

Have another article you may want to share with your partner. Victoria Stillwell beautifully explains why food (or let's say rewards ... be it toys, praise, whatever is a fabulous reward for any particular dog) works WAY better than punishment and/or dominance in dog training. Go Victoria!! http://positively.com/2012/05/14/why-positive-training-is-not-bribery/ Maybe he could start watching a bit more "It's Me Or The Dog" and a bit less Cesar. I know, wishful thinking ... but miracles do happen! Positive Reinfocement training has years of science to back up everything - Cesar has himself, and his own declarations as "a dog whisperer" - and that's all. *sigh* Still, I know he makes for good tv (for some) as he's very charming and charismatic -- altho I believe that anyone who understands dog behavior and dog body language can barely stomach watching the show. Watching it with no sound is unnerving and makes me sad.

Can't wait to hear how tomorrow goes! Good luck!!!

I know Victoria Stillwell's training methods well as you say GO VICTORIA

Have downloaded and bookmarked the page and will read after I've posted about Ra Kismet's Big Day Sadly her show isn't being shown here at the moment but knowing how much they like repeats everything crossed it will be on at a time when partner is around and that I can get him to watch Fortunately, neither is Cesar Millan, I couldn't watch much of him when he was on, made me feel sicksicksick All I'll say is he must have had a good PR/Marketing Department behind him the rest is

 

[MaryK]

First a HUGE thank you to everyone who has helped me, you guys really ROCK

I have been working in the garden, well driveway (fully enclosed and no view to the street) with Ra Kismet and put into practice getting his TOTAL focus on me - so he was 'primed' prior to today his Big Day click/treat all the time and even today, worked him off lead at heel work and he did VERY well considering he's not done that off lead before.

I would also like to send a HUGE thank you to one VERY patient, well trained almost 9mths old Border Collie = Evie you were fantastic putting up with your Mom Carly taking you round and round on your lead, when really you wanted to PARTEEEEEEEEEE at the off lead part of the Pooch Park. Everyone, she was BRILLIANT and a credit to Carly and herself

Now Ra Kismet I am TOTALLY AMAZED AND DELIGHTED to say he behaved SO WELL it was UNBELIEVABLE (did some one exchange him for a look alike???). Actually almost feel like I'm dreaming, a beautiful soft lovely dream

After being a little over anxious to get out of the car, we saw Evie immediately and whilst he looked 'attentive' he DID NOT over react at all, so much so we were all able to 'meet and greet' without Ra Kismet though standing and doing the doggy greeting, we just started off walking with me doing lots of "Ra Kismet look at me" click/treat. Evie is of course VERY well mannered, a PAWFECT lady

There were masses of distractions on the walk around the outside of the enclosed area - dogs galore (all on leads) cyclists/people with kids/ umbrellas DUCKS more than Ra Kismet ever encounters on his normal daily walks and the kid was FANTASTIC!!!!!!! I did feel a bit like "Kath and Kim" with the 'look at me' but his response was awesome. Carly kept 'watch' and warned me when there was an approaching dog/cyclists. Two laps and he barely lost focus on me, well if you discount some sniffing, I mean all those new smells. He showed some interest a couple of times at first, not much in other dogs cyclists but hey THAT TREAT DISPENSER was MUCH MORE INTERESTING and he was coming right back to me on loose lead when I said Ra Kismet (no dogs or anything around) and even coming back HIMSELF without prompts And yep we did manage one nose dive into the treat bag but he cleaned up after himself, every last crumb

Then as little Evie was definitely wearing the 'hey Mom I'm getting very bored I wanna parteeeeeeeeee' look we took them both into the enclosed, double gated part. Evie was off and having fun Ra Kismet went into his own private world and circled around the entire park just sniffing and didn't hear me at all but as he wasn't stressed, just a little cautious when a dog ran right into his face, we just followed around and let him do his 'thing'. He did, after a while come back to me quite quickly, once I had caught his attention and even managed a little agility work, nothing formal. Started to play chase with a friendly Boxer and a little white cutie pie (his size of gal) and Carly and I both felt that a few more trips and he would be like Evie PARTEEEEEE. We both watched him closely though and were pleased with his reaction to it all. Left though when a rather boisterous barking and biggish dog came in, complete with excitable kids and a man who was also into the 'excitement' side - I quickly spotted Ra Kismet get a bit too 'attentive' with that "I'm seriously considering a bit of over the top behavior' look he WASN'T comfortable, so I quickly slipped on his lead click/treat routine and we left with dignity

Still cannot believe it happened, NO-ONE, seeing him today, would have believed what I went through the other day when I posted and I did NOT exaggerate that post one bit.

 

[MaryK]

Just took a look in the treat bag, I took his entire nights dinner with me as I didn't want to run out of treats and afraid the boys in for a VERY small dinner tonight. We used LOADS of treats and also of course, some were scattered on the ground when he attempted the 'nose dive' into the treat bag Honestly, it was a FANTASTIC afternoon, Carly and Evie were wonderful and Ra Kismet had FUN FUN FUN and so did I Now all I have to do is keep on working with him and I just KNOW he's gonna make it. Fraid I just cannot stop thinking about HOW GOOD he was, just as I always KNEW he could be I'll sleep tonight for the first time since the 'incident' happened and I think maybe Ra Kismet will too

Carly said and I totally agree, that the over reaction tantrum could have been a 'flash back' to when he was attacked. The other dog coming up so quickly behind him. Better stop, but am sooooooooooo thrilled and sooooooooooooooo happy

Oh yes, I did use the Halti/Gentle Leader and Carly remarked he seemed to really like it - I do think he DOES prefer it to any other form of collar. Anyone able to explain the 'why' to me? Curious on this score as to why.

And, partner actually DROVE me there and sat in the car with Zeus and WAITED for us to finish - now that's also a first - am in SHOCK Plus am 'training' partner. Sorry a bit more I 'read aloud' a lot of the articles (to myself of course) but I know full well partner was listening. Have to use 'back door' tactics with him Also just talked in a 'general' way about Millan getting bitten because of his training methods - nothing directed at partner not see your methods are wrong (red flag to a bull that method)- just oh Millan was bitten big time blah blah blah and if he get's bitten, could happen to owners too, blah blah blah, can see some improvement in partner but he's not as quick at learning as Ra Kismet

 

[MaryK]

Jackiemutts, just read the first page of the Victoria Stillwell site fascinating, especially about the reaction in a dog's brain to food. Always believed in food rewards but am now 'armed' with the why's and scientific facts. Great read, now to 'inform' partner in an 'off hand' manner. Going to read more. This should be mandatory reading for all dog handlers!

 

[Dogster]

WOW. FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOO!!!!!!! Congrats to the four of you, especially you and Ra Kismet!!!! He is doing sooo well!!!!

Quickie, am watching/reading the site - Cesar Millan, who my partner thinks is fantastic, sorry it's making me feel sick, because in the Emily Pit bull Video THIS IS EXACTLY what my partner did to Ra Kismet and Emily's reaction is EXACTLY what Ra did back - sickening!

Watching Podee, WHAT a difference. Back to reading/viewing and a cuppa I feel sick.

By the way, you can tell your partner that before Cesar does anything, it always says DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. So he shouldn't be trying it out on your dogs.

I used to like Cesar Millan (never going down that road again) I saw a lot of episodes where, surprisingly, the dog didn't seem to react until AFTER Cesar "corrected" it. Also, this video brought me over to the good side:

The problem is, trainers like Cesar Millan and Brad Pattinson are bigger right now then positive trainers like Victoria Stillwell, Zak George, Kyra Sundance. It's hard to change this, if only more people would believe in developing a POSITIVE relationship with their dogs...

 

[MaryK]

Good for you converting to the right roadWatched the vid in sheer horror felt totally sickened and also went over to YouTube to see how many agreed OMG too many AGREED and actually said they 'by accident' booted their dog or let a heavy door bang on the dog's headas to what I think of those people!!!!!!!!!!! Actually although Millan is considered 'charismatic' from the word go I thought him smarmy and suffering from 'little short man syndrome'. I also watched HIS body language (originally from t.v. show) and DID NOT like it at allAlso, to my knowledge, I haven't seen any 'follow up' a year or two down the track on how these poor dogs are behaving. As I said think Millan and Brad Pattison (another one favoured by my partner) have VERY GOOD marketing bods. I had an argument with my hairdresser over Millan, now her beautiful Boxer dog, just a tad younger than Ra Kismet is kept in a small backyard and rarely walked etc. because guess what - HE'S NOT VERY OBEDIENT - surprise surprise NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MaryK]

Thank you DogsterI have everyone here to thank because it's been not only the wonderful advice and help but the support, knowing I'm not alone, which has got Ra Kismet and I through a very bad time - past tense now - as I KNOW my boy will continue to be a happy chap and not get all het up And I've become the best Treat Dispenser around town and will continue to do so for a while yet to be sure he's totally 'got it'. looks like the boys in for a few smaller dinners for a wee whileclick/treat is so much more effective than praise/treat that's for sure

 

[jackienmutts]

WOOO-HOOOO!!!!! I am so happy for you!! I couldn't wait to hear how it all went!! Hooray for Evie too, being the perfect mentor (and cute date ) for Ra Kismet. It sounds like you did everything right, and that it couldn't have gone better! And how great that your partner was there in the car waiting (or was he .. in his own way and time .. observing?). Sometimes people like that have an interest "in the other side" but can't admit it. He may have wanted to see what all this "stuff" was all about (just in case there might be something to it). Good for you, using only positive reinforcement (and backdoor methods) for him too .. as coercion just doesn't work for anyone, does it?

Good call leaving the park when you did. When rowdy dogs (with rowdy owners) enter, most often little good can come of it. Not many dogs do well - sure, there will be a couple dogs who do love rowdy play, and they'll do great. But let that rowdy dog meet the one very challenging dog who does not like it, and all hell can break loose very quickly.

You mentioned about Ra Kismet taking dives into the bait bag. Never underestimate the value of a huge jackpot! When he does something EXTRA FANTASTIC (like, maybe no reaction to an overly reactive dog, or just walking past a dog without notice, etc), offer that bait bag to him and let him take a dive in himself and get a HUGE mouthful, all the while telling hiim what a FANTASTIC boy he is. It makes a huge impression - wow, mom must really think I'm special for getting all that!!! (Kinda like if we did a good job at work and our boss said great job and dropped a bag of $$ in our lap!!)

As for the Halti, that feeling of that over his muzzle may give him a feeling of comfort - back to the old days of the mom's mouth over the puppy's muzzle, not sure, only guessing. Also, once that's on him, you have control over his head, and it may be that he almost feels better that you're in control and he has less decisions -- you know when you're in an unsure environment and you have all the decisions to make, how stressful that is? Say you're driving in an unfamiliar area in lots of traffic with no map, no GPS, no idea of direction, the streets, nothing - but you've to got get somewhere? YIKES! The stress!! Then someone else who knows the whole area says oh that's ok, I'll drive ... that feeling of "aaahhhhh" that would take over. Maybe it's the same with him. He's a bit anxious, but when the Halti is on, he knows you have full control (even if he's walking on a total loose leash - it only matter how he feels ). Not positive, only speculating again - but it sounds reasonable. If he's comfortable and relaxed (and knows you are too), he's going to be much better behaved on his walk. And that's a win/win.

You mentioned about scattering the treats - always an option. It's turns on the "hunt" brain for the dog (always fun) and makes yet another game (plus gives them something to do). I'm working with a reactive dog right now, who loves other dogs, but her arousal goes over the top at the mere sight (excitement) of one - she gets very snarky (total excitement) and I'd lose fingers if I tried to hand-feed her all her treats. I toss as we walk to keep my appendages attached. Her ability to hunt and eat also gives me a good indication of her arousal level. When she's calmer and able to focus on me, I'll hand-feed and do focus work. It all depends. There are never static rules, just do whatever feels right at the moment - or sometimes whatever happens at the moment. Cuz sometimes stuff just happens.

So glad your day went so beautifully!! Bask in it!!!

 

[MaryK]

Hi Jackiemutts Evie (and Carly of course) were the PAWFECT PAIR I couldn't have wished for better. Evie's got the energy of course of a BC BUT she has a 'calm' manner (excellent work on Carly's part) and doesn't get 'excited', takes everything in her stride, which was absolutely right for Ra Kismet LOL oh yes he's in LUUVVVVVV He "took" to her immediately, wasn't fussed at all and neither was she, both dogs happy to just toddle along together without a doggy greet session Even when, after one and a half circuits of the outside area (quite big circuits too) and she got a bit bored (who can blame her when she's used to playing in the enclosed area) she didn't get antsy at all, just amused herself by picking up a stick and LOL trying to poke Ra Kismet in a VERY ladylike manner to get him to maybe help carry the stick so cute? I gave Ra Kismet one but LOL he looked at me as if to say "hey Mom, that doesn't taste good" BUT he didn't get upset over Evie carrying her stick

Partner has just walked in and I 'casually' asked him if he was watching us - back to me 'Nope Ra Kismet's a good dog' - in a 'what's all the fuss about' tone. So I just said calmly you didn't see the original dog fight and went on about Victoria Stillwell, dopemine etc. and let it go. BUT knowing him, have a sneaking suspicion he was watching because on the first circuit he waved to us going past. Lots of trees etc. around the circuit so he wouldn't have had a brilliant view but he's VERY observant (when he wants to be) so I would say he saw more than he's letting on. A bit further along he'll more than likely 'out of the blue' make reference to it all. Your soooooooooooo right coercion doesn't work for anyone - maybe he'll learn it doesn't work with me either

Thank you, I had that 'gut' feeling when the rowdy dog and owner plus three kids arrived it was time to make a dignified exit. Ra Kismet was 'alert' in an 'anxious' way and I did NOT want him to witness, or be involved in any sort of altercation, especially with kids around, the kids were the 'excited' variety. In one way it was a shame, because Ra Kismet had just, after meeting the dog earlier, decided that he very much liked the Boxer (big lovable goofy fellow he was so cute) and that, along with Evie and a charming little white fluffy gal, a game of chase may just be in order. But there is always a next time I was VERY happy though that before that Ra Kismet was 'settling in' to the dog park,had come back from his 'own little world' and was responding to me by coming back when called, albeit just a short distance, but HEY first time the boys even BEEN to a pooch park and I was well pleased with his reaction. Just one slight "ooohhhhh that dog came right in my face' moment but he handled it EXTREMELY well and we had only just walked into the enclosed area. He 'recovered' quickly and went about sniffing the entire area, quietly, calmly but definitely 'in his own world'

Understand about the nose dive I'll take more treats in another bag, so I don't run out, and let him nose dive when he's done something really special LOL he'll clear the lot that's for sure HUGE JACKPOT as he's very fast on gobbling treats once he get's into the treat bag. But understand TOTALLY what you're saying. He got a lot when he nosed dived at the park.

You've hit the nail on the head with the Halti. I know (that old 'gut' again) that what you say is right. Ra Kismet (I do study him so much) does have that feeling that 'he's got take take on all the responsibility when out, Mom needs me to do that' .

 

[MaryK]

sorry italics jammed for some reason. To continue. It' - no still jammed will log out and re-log in again - sorry COMPUTERS!!!!!!!!!

 

[MaryK]

O.K. to continue It's hard to explain but he's a little 'too alert' over everything going on around him. Someone opens their front door and he wants to take more than a 'glancing' look etc. As I said, it's hard to explain but what you've said makes sense. Plus with his Mom she would have been ALL he had to rely on when a very young puppy, no humans to give him support etc. So that too makes sense. Will continue with the Halti because it's all about 'what's best' for him. And 'knowing' Ra Kismet I too am happier, calmer etc. when he's on the Halti, which of course does convey to him. Not that I'm an anxious person but even the slightest tension on my part, he picks up on big time! He's VERY sensitive under that 'hail fellow well met' outward appearance - LOL I know my boy just I need to know at times what/how to handle something and this forum rocks!!!!!!!!

Actually with scattering treats LOL Ra Kismet managed that all by himself when he nosed dived. Unlike the doggy your working with, Ra Kismet is VERY gentle with taking treats, LOL more slobber than anything, he doesn't 'grab' at treats (actually Zeus is the one you have to watch on that, always give him a treat as if he were a horse). Can understand why you scatter though - you prefer your appendages to remain right where they are! I think I'll stick with the 'click/treat' good boy praise click/treats as he's getting VERY good at focusing on ME. I've added a 'verbal cue' too - "look at me' and he's responding VERY WELL to that with the click/treat quickly following the verbal cue.

I NOW understand fully why treats are the PERFECT way to train. I've always used them because they worked but, now I understand the 'hunt' take away fear which makes total sense and is also scientifically proven to be the RIGHT way to train I can now explain to others WHY they should use that method.

Jackiemutts I'm thrilled with all the help I have received and also how happy everyone is too at my boy's progress. You couldn't image how that all makes me feel.

Oh one last thing, all the 'excitement' of the day - LOL actually TIRED Ra Kismet!!!!!!!!! He didn't even remind me it was feed time, we got home about three quarters of an hour before feed time Although of course he had already eaten most of his night time feed The boy definitely LOVED his Big Day Out and so too did I

Oh one more LOL I think Ra Kismet actually ENJOYS walking with another dog better than with just me, as I've noticed in the past when he walks along with another dog, even a strange dog we meet when out as has happened occasionally, who is calm, HE calms down - kinda 'takes his cue' from the other dog and is more interested in being friends etc. Not LOL that he doesn't enjoy walks with me but he's like some people, likes his 'own kind' as well as a human Mom Does that make sense?

 

[MaryK]

Follow up on Big Day. We did training in the drive way, off lead heeling, he's doing SO WELL on that, plus other tricks then went for our walk.

Saw some people I know sitting on their verandah, so stopped to speak, their dogs (unsighted but NOT unheard) started to bark, went into the click/treat oh brother I'm getting to be the fastest food dispenser on the planet Ra Kismet responded REALLY WELL in the end he was just sitting blinking a bit sleepily and looking at me all the time. Seemed to 'forget' the existence of three madly barking dogs completely

Did some 'parking' a bit further along the way, we did this a few times, LOL it was very hot so at shady spots we "parked', ignored him (aren't I good, click/treat for Mom) just 'watched him out the corner of my eye' - oh "it's a bit boring YAWN but hey if Mom wants to just stand and do nothing, well guess I just lie and do nothing'.

Looking for shade to walk in spotted a small patch of trees did NOT realize that there were a load of dogs 'hidden' behind a shade cloth enclosure Half way down a slope covered in pine bark when a MASSIVE cacophony of barking went up - seemingly 'out of the blue' as this is an office area, not residential Ra Kismet looked 'very interested' but before he had a chance to do anything more, I went into click/treat BIG TIME and made my way carefully down the slope click/treating all the time. He stayed FOCUSED on me - and the treat bag

Nice man coming across this wee 'park' area commented on Ra Kismet (he was behaving so well and looked so cute etc.) and also informed me that the dogs were beagle sniffer dogs from the airport - we were right on the road leading down to the airport. That explained dogs being in an 'unusual' place.

With the Beagle Choir singing at ear splitting decibels, I kept up the click/treat, walking around. Then did some running in figure eights, WITHOUT click/treating the entire time.

Amazed at how well Ra Kismet 'forgot' the Beagle Choir, who were by now about 30 feet away but still in fine fettle voice wise You could also see their muzzles and paws coming through the bottom on the enclosure.

Also, just to add to the racket there was a construction site on one side, and two main roads on the other, with the office buildings and Beagle Choir on the other, so a lot for the boy to contend with. Construction site DID NOT worry the boy at all, in fact he 'asked' VERY politely with a 'look' if we could go watch the men play with big boy toys and was very happy to sit for a while watching all those fascinating big boy toys working - well he seemed to find it fascinating, not so sure I did, but hey if the boy's happy then so am I What Mom's do for their kids.

He eventually got bored with that, so we did our tricks all on the lead of course. Walk on hind legs, stand on hind legs, the 'dreaded' drop, the 'loved' down and roll over (only once, he normally does three rolls in a row but the lead etc.)shake paws and say your prayers. The Beagle Choir provided the 'music' - dancing with dogs LOL in more ways than one

BUT Ra Kismet seemed to forget all about the Beagle Choir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We did some more running around the trees loose lead work and then made for home. Had to pass the Beagle Choir (they'll need some throat lozenge tonight) so did the click/treat routine up the slope as he was 'looking a bit interested' (they were only a few feet away now) and as he'd been such a fantastic boy let him have a JACKPOT NOSE DIVE - all that could be heard above all the other noise was SNUFFLE SNORT

On the way home took a different route, more shade and hit a street where I think just about every house had a barking dog - chain reaction BIG TIME - went into the click/treat routine and whilst he isn't totally ready to just toddle along without a blink unless I click/treat he's ALMOST at that point. Besides don't want to rush the boy and set him back would rather click/treat until he's REALLY GOT IT than stop too soon.

So proud of the boy, he's doing so well and LOL he got another 'small' dinner because I'm using his dinner for his treats to make sure he doesn't get over weight

Just have the BIG ONE, seeing/passing another dog on the street. Didn't encounter any other pooches out walking, middle of the day, they're usually around late afternoon/early evening. Will walk early afternoon for a while, to REALLY instill in his head to behave in a gentlemanly manner before we attempt going out in 'prime time for the doggy brigade',again don't want to rush the boy.

 

[jackienmutts]

This is all fabulous!!! Must run off to work, only popped in for a second -- more later!!!!!