My Goal In Life

[tigerlily46514]

Laramie, i haven't yet the article, titled "A World without Wolfhounds", i've seen a wolfhound parade with 100s of wolfhounds marching along, all in matching lil green bowties, (how lucky am i? i almost swooned at this sight, wow and wow) and there are wolfhounds one can rescue on petfinders.

but, i have no idea if you are really reading my posts when you wrote:
//"And, although it's not an ideal situation, wouldn't you rather have breeders do SOME testing rather than NONE?"//
wha???????
I feel like it's as if i've posted, "I would like a cake."
and you reply, "Wouldn't you like a cake??!!"
facepalm.
I give up.

Again, to *anyone else* reading along, dogs are not extinct,ZERO CHANCE OF ANY BREED BECOMING "EXTINCT"
as the breeds i'm sure you'd never heard of prior to scrapping around to discover rare breeds in other countries prove, your list proves how dogs are EASILY renumbered, even 100s of years ago, easily easily reproduced. The supply/demand for these less common dogs is probably just about right, with only a small number of these dogs being on petfinders, YAY!!!

AND anyone who wants ANY BREED can indeed, acquire such a dog,
there is just NO chance of dogs becoming extinct.


dogs are NOT like panda bears---dogs DO reproduce VERY VERY easily and prolifically,
many many breeds we have today, are ALL decendents of only TWO dogs who were created by humans
to produce the line you own today,
and
we have a severe dog overpopulation crisis in the US, as well as most other countries,
and
since we DO have a dog OVERPOPULATION CRISIS
breeding dogs should be left to those experts who understand genetics and do full testing of both parents lineage.

Laramie, if you feel you will someday gain the education req'd to properly breed diseases OUT of purebreds to add more dogs to this overpopulation crisis, what can i say? I HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY
this level of breeding IS ADMIRABLE, but exceedingly rare.

It's also good idea, to become very familiar with the breed you are going to make more of, so do start learning up on the nat'l dog of Sweden, etc. Breeders SHOULD be very familiar with the breed that they feel the world needs more of.
You are free to do as you see fit, no one can stop you! There are literally millions of ppl who breed dogs, no one can stop them from making a living from dog uteruses, and millions of customer$ who keep them in business!!........

and millions and millions of homeless dogs in dog pounds,

and millions and millions of dogs being put to death,

simply

because------------------>
we have TOO MANY dogs already.

and, by the way, Laramie, after reding your descriptions of how hard you tried to rescue a homeless border collie without finding any-------- i put your zip code into petfinders, there were many, many homeless border collies, and homeless aussies, right in your state. but, whatever!
HAVE A GREAT WEEK.

 

[charmedwolf]

Keep it civil, guys. No need to step on each others toes.

"Poodle mixes" (I refuse to call them by their marketing name) are not real breeds in my opinion. They are not registered, can't work and are littered with health problems because people wanted to make a quick buck. They are simple two pure breeds mixed together to make money. Originally they were "created" in australia as a way for people who need services dogs but are allergic to them. There is no way to guarantee that they would be no shedding or hyperallegenic. Even the "creator" of the Australian Labradoodle admitted that things had gone to far and that they should have never started in the first place.

http://www.learntobreed.com/index.html is a great place to look for information about breeding even on why or why not you should breed along with a check list of everything you should have, need or is frowned upon.

My idea of the breeder that I stive to be is this:
One breed and one breed only unless they are active in another sport/ hobby/ job that uses another breed. (They are most likely to know their breed in and out if that is their only one.)
Conformation titles are required, multiple countries prefered. (This shows that the "type" they are breeding is universal and closer to the breed standard.)
Sports titles are required, more emphasis on more natural sports than agility or flyball. (If I want a hunting dog it better be able to hunt. If it was breed to do it, it should have a title for it)
All health tests are a must. (If I ask you why you don't have a test done and you answer back, "I've never had that problem before" You need a slap on the head. You never know if you don't check)
Able to take a puppy back if something goes wrong whether by divine intervention or health reasons. (They should always be able to take a puppy back.)
The area that the dogs live in must be clean whether the house or a kennel, more preference put on the house. (I know it's not always clean living with dogs. Trust me I have 7-8 at any given time and my house is always clean and the kennels and pastures are cleaned at least 4 times a week. It's not hard)
Dogs should be well cleaned, happy, healthy and well mannered. (Dogs are dogs and I understand they are muddy after coming in from the rain but if I pet them and get a gritty dirt feel then I know they haven't had a bath in a long while. Dogs shouldn't be overweight or underweight though I understand if the bitch was in season recently and the dogs are underweight I've had it happen. Well mannered means I don't get growled at, attack or jumped on and the dogs responds when the owner asks them to do something.)

As you could tell if you read through all that I have incredibly high standards over what a breeder should be and do. This is also the standard I hold myself to. If you can't provide all this then you shouldn't breed. I bet you, the dog species as a whole would improve if every breeder held themselves to such a high standard.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Great post, CWolf, i'd add, a good breeder should properly vet prospective clients, as well, and have homes lined up prior to creating more dogs.


//"Poodle mixes" (I refuse to call them by their marketing name) are not real breeds in my opinion. They are not registered, can't work and are littered with health problems because people wanted to make a quick buck. They are simple two pure breeds mixed together to make money."//

as are most breeds, being mass produced to make a buck.
Border collies have only recently been "recognized" as a breed, too, yet, they are indeed a breed, for 100s of years.
Many breeds take decades, even centuries to be deemed, "a breed" by the AKC beauty contest.
The anti-allergy, less shedding aspect of the doodle dogs, depends on whether the dog is an f1, f2, f3, generation of the dog. It's not "just mixing two purebreds", although that is how this breed got started, same as all other breeds have got started.
It is the 3rd or 4th generation, that gets the hypoallergenic dog, not the 1st gen. This is a great example, of how understanding genetics is a very good thing for breeders to learn up on.

ALL breeds(with very very few exceptions) are "riddled with health problems". I'm not saying all dogs of the breed have a problem, but most breeds, unless health testing is done on both parents, can be riddled with health problems. This is sadly very common among purebreds.
Many breeds are so so ruined, (like a King Charles Spaniel, for example) it's difficult to find a dog who DOESN'T have or carry multiple health problems.

BYB can indeed, ruin any breed, labradoodles or german shepherds, a BYB can indeed ruin the dogs health. Genetic testing is a must.

the LESS popular a breed is, the more likely the breed is healthy overall.
ONce a breed gets reeeeally popular, and becomes mass produced, that is when the health problems multiply.
Being recongized by AKC, also contributes to health problems, as the latest fad is strived for, like what AKC did to the GSD in the 60s -90s, for example, was sad sad sad.


PS: I agree, civility is great, but, i have not been uncivil, at all, nor advocated for slapping anyone's heads, lol

 

[mewzard]

All at once would be crazy. Well I hope to at least to help find them homes, that's why I would love to foster them. Maybe volunteer at a shelter.

I'm a fosterer!! It has been so worth it. We've only been fostering for a month or so but have rehomed 2 dogs and 'rescued' 2 others (the owner wanted them out or he was going to dump them).
.
There are so many dogs that need that help just to get a good home...Kennels never show dogs in a good light. I'm in the UK and the little centre we 'work' for has rehomed 2,466 dogs this year (probably a few more than that now) yet still has over 200 in foster or kennels... and a ton that need to go into the centre or be euthanised....Thats just 1 place in a tiny village in the UK.

 

[tigerlily46514]

HATS OFF TO YOU, Mewzard! It's been very exciting hearing about your progress in this area, i'm stoked for you, and for the lucky dogs that you are saving! YAY!!!

 

[charmedwolf]

Gibbs' slap, Tigerlily if you've ever watched NCIS "A slap to the face is an insult -on to the back of the head a wake-up call.)

"The anti-allergy, less shedding aspect of the doodle dogs, depends on whether the dog is an f1, f2, f3, generation of the dog. It's not "just mixing two purebreds", although that is how this breed got started, like all breeds have got started.
It is the 3rd or 4th generation, that gets the hypoallergenic dog, not the 1st gen. This is a great example, of how understanding genetics is a very good thing for breeders to learn up on."

Actually even in the 3rd or 4th generation you can still run into dogs that shed depending on what the parent's genetic make up was. However, I believe it is only a 25% chance. It's the matter of breeding true aka sucessfully breeding the same hair type over multiple generations which is what starts to happen around the 4th generation. That's what makes a breed. Dogs that breed true when bred together. The Australian Labradoodle is on it's 6th or 7th generation in Australia I believe and is trying to be recognized there, they were breed for a purpose of being a hypoallergenic service dog. They are also generally poodle, lab and cocker spanial mix instead of just lab and poodle.

With genetic health problems in every breed you have to pick and choose your battles over what ones do you think you could win first. If you are breeding dogs with good hips every time then what is the next problem they are getting. Is it eyes, heart? As soon as you fix one thing you have to slowly incorperate new dogs to fix problems while keeping the intergrity of your good hips in tact.

I actually don't like the AKC much because of how amazing everybody thinks their dogs is because its ancestory is known. They believe that because the dog has AKC papers it must be of some high quality. I would prefer that the AKC make sure that the dogs being bred have titles and testing before they allow the litters to be registered which I believe the FCI does. I believe that it would cut down on a lot of our problems. I think I might write an email to them asking about such things, who knows what might come from it.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"I actually don't like the AKC much because of how amazing everybody thinks their dogs is because its ancestory is known. They believe that because the dog has AKC papers it must be of some high quality. I would prefer that the AKC make sure that the dogs being bred have titles and testing before they allow the litters to be registered which I believe the FCI does."//

i could not agree more. Very well worded, and sadly so true. Feeling a dog is somehow, superficially more "valuable" if he has "papers" is a very common attitude,
and i feel, imo, this "dogs need papers" attitude also makes it harder for many ppl to serously consider rescuing a dog pound dog who has, somehow, lost his meaningless AKC papers ...as if he is now not as "valuable" or his owner would not be able to properly brag on him without papers...
this attitude seems sooooooooo cheesy to me.


AKC papers does NOT indicate even one single thing about a dog's HEALTH, at all. A missed opportunity lurks in there....
Breeding to meet sometimes arbitrary AKC measurements, colors, and angle standards, and definitly not always healthy standards, causes much harm to dog's overall health and function. PLus, the ACK is not immune to fads, which do much harm to dogs.
Many top AKC prize winners have been suffereing from diseases, has ZERo to do with health, mmmHmm.

Many many breeds have become damaged with trying to meet some of the AKC's exaggerated dimensions which REDUCE their function, like the now way shorter dachsund legs, the dangerously sloping GSD hips, etc etc. We now have breeds that can barely run, give birth, or even breathe easily.

We have made some very low functioning and freak breeds now, but, so what if dog can't really breathe well, or if his adorably super round head now can not contain his brains comfortably, --------- hey, he measures exactly just right by AKC standards.
Endless list really, when one looks over historical pictures of how breeds USED TO look, but got ruined over some arbitrary fad the AKC came up with this decade or that decade...sad..

 

[Amateur]

It is the 3rd or 4th generation, that gets the hypoallergenic dog, not the 1st gen. This is a great example, of how understanding genetics is a very good thing for breeders to learn up on.

The Myth of the Hypoallergenic Dog
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2011/07/07/study.hypoallergenic.dogs.not.less.allergic.other.dogs
http://healthland.time.com/2011/07/08/the-myth-of-the-hypoallergenic-dog/

 

[mewzard]

We now have breeds that can barely run, give birth, or even breathe easily.

I was told by someone that essentually boxers should be extinct; as they can't pant through labour as thier nose channels are too short, and thier hips are too narrow to birth through. I don't know how true this is though.
.
I do see a huge range of body structure within each breed, our last foster, a boxer, had a terrible time panting, he would snore and cough in his sleep, but as a child my neighbour breed them and they had very different shaped heads. Others i've seen have massively different body and face shapes.
.
What Kennel clubs have allowed breeders to do to the GSD is disgraceful. If they stopped titling the dogs that are exagerated versions of breeds then dogs would be more physically viable. Crufts Pastoral group winner was http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=PAS&ScheduleID=71 . (firstly Elmo !! LOL) He isn't as bad on the back as i have seen but the Shepherd is supposed to be square with a slight slope at the croup....can't find the article i'm looking for here!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Ah, not all studies are accurate, they do not mention what gen of dog they were using, no how they measured it, i am a nurse, i have patients who are allergic to dogs, but happily live with poodles, (poodle is well groomed, and they keep their rooms clean, this factor does matter) but will wheeze horribley around other dogs.
Whether you believe this or not, even the White House has a lil girl with severe dog allergies living happily with a Portugese Water Dog. there is a difference between hair and fur.
but i'll certainly agree, there are levels of allergies, and "hypoallergenic" is probably the wrong word to use, but MANY ppl allergic to dogs can live with doodles or poodles or Portuguese Water Dogs, etc etc etc, IF home and dog are kept clean.

 

[tigerlily46514]

is THIS what you were looking for, Mewzard??

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"i was told by someone that essentually boxers should be extinct; as they can't pant through labour as thier nose channels are too short, and thier hips are too narrow to birth through"//

well, i do not know if this is true of boxers, but it IS true of many many breeds, but instead of making such breeds "extinct", the AKC could set healthier standards, and for those breeds who no longer can give birth, BREATHE well, or fit their brains into their skulls, etc etc, those breed standards could be tweaked to become more functional and healthy...
back to what these breeds USED TO look like.

but,
the dog's health and function is NOT the main focus of the AKC ....

 

[charmedwolf]

It's not the Boxer but the bulldogs I believe. There was an article in the New York Times I believe talking about them and their problems.
Here's the article I haven't been able to read it: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/magazine/can-the-bulldog-be-saved.html?_r=2

http://www.mnn.com/family/pets/stories/bulldogs-face-health-problems-from-reckless-breeding

I would like to point out that it is the Parent Club that changes the breed standard and the AKC approves it. So it is the Parent Clubs that need to change the standard to emphasis health more.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Lol, the AKC has the power to say no, "that is not in best interest of the breed's health". Like they should have with the GSD in the video above, actually, a very very few (like less than a handful) of very powerful breeders (main movers in "the parent club")set off that whole hip-slope thing, because they had come up with some dogs with this slope,and wanted to force this onto the breed! And it was only a useless, crippling fad!!!

Lol, if my kids had come to me, and said, "mom, we want to do this or that" and *I* approve/give permission, i am now the one responsible, as i did okay it. But fans of the AKC always try to point at the breeder clubs, to absolve the AKC, but, i don't see it that way. The buck stops at the AKC.

but, a breed's function and health is NOT the main focus of the AKC, which makes millions each year off registering "papers" to dogs, the bulk of which come from puppy mills.

 

[Amateur]

Ah, not all studies are accurate, they do not mention what gen of dog they were using, no how they measured it

I was just posting the article for interest sake - that they may not be completely hypoallergenic ... there is much more detail in the actual scientific paper

 

[running_dog]

I really don't like the idea that pedigree registration denotes a good breeder or good breeding. Looking at what has happened to so many breeds as they evolve to the whims of the kennel clubs I am no longer sure that a breed can or should be preserved from extinction as an artifact. Does extensive genetic testing really protect breed quality? To me genetic testing is applying a band aid on a broken back. If a breed can no longer carry out the original purpose of the breed then the breed has hardly been preserved from extinction has it?

I firmly believe all kennel club championship border collies should have to herd, whippets, greyhounds, deerhound, wolfhounds, salukis, borzois etc should either have to race or hunt, Foxhounds, beagle, basset and bloodhound should have to at the least follow a scent trail, Labradors, Goldens, setters, pointers etc should have to at least compete in working trials. German shepherds, boxers, dobermans, bull mastiffs, mastiffs and airedale terriers could also compete in working trials or Schutzhund.

As has already been stated border collies have been bred for years without any registration. If anything their quality has been diluted by registration. People want mellow pretty border collies as pets, frankly that is not a border collie. Shepherds don't look for kennel club registration they look at how the parents work, what any other progeny have been like, whether they are aggressive, what the grandparents were like, whether their were rogues in the bloodline, often they choose not even to buy a puppy by/out of a sheepdog trials winner. They know the conditions in which they'll be working a dog, mountainside herding quality is not always best identified in a sheepdog trial.

Some lines of pedigree whippets can no longer run owing to an overarched spine - the arched back is a kennel club not a working requirement. Racing and coursing whippets tend to be an inch or so larger than show whippets, their backs are flatter so they look like minature greyhounds. Generally they wouldn't place in a show ring. I know which I'd choose. Of course if you cross even an overarched spine whippet with a terrier breed (NOT a pedigree Bedlington terrier, now destroyed by the kennel club induced overarched spine and non waterproof coat) you generally get a litter of nice healthy little pups - because this is an extreme outcross and there are not generally overlapping health problems in these breeds.

Some people breeding crossbred or otherwise non registered dogs do take a lot of time to ensure the pups can do the job they are bred for, they don't breed "designer dogs" they breed working sheepdogs, working terriers and working sighthounds some of which are homed as pets. Does anyone really think that a raft of genetic testing and kennel club beauty contests excel this kind of breeding?

But after all that lets direct our frustration at the breeders who cause most of the problems. If all the puppy mills/farms churning out 1000s of 1000's of unhealthy unsocialised (kennel club registered or unregistered) puppies were closed down then it would be possible for people to raise occasional homebred litters of pedigree, crossbred or mutt pups without having to constantly worry about the ethics. This whole discussion would actually be irrelevant.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to write an essay...

 

[tigerlily46514]

great points, RDog!

//"Does anyone really think that a raft of genetic testing and kennel club beauty contests excel this kind of breeding?"//
I think by excel, you mean"improve:"??
If so, You are right, if breeding mutts, working dogs from large, diverse gene pools, the chance of breeding within a supersmall gene pool is far less, THAN IT IS FOR PUREBREDS, which DO come from an exceedingly small gene pool, which is the root of almost all their health problems, is the size of the gene pool. The AKC will happily issue registrations for father/daughter, mother/son, or sibling litters...
(which CAN be safely done, if the genetic testing is done first, ubt 80% of dogs come from BYB, who do zero testing whatsoever.)


Yes, when breeding purebreds, when working within a small unnatural gene pool, you do have to genetically test the dogs to prevent adding more diseased dogs to the world.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"If all the puppy mills/farms churning out 1000s of 1000's of unhealthy unsocialised (kennel club registered or unregistered) puppies were closed down..."//

ah, wouldn't THAT be awesome!!?? but, ppl keep buying their dogs, year after year, $upporting these breeders, ppl who mass produce dogs, (often the parents live terrible lives), and puppy mills. Pet shops, btw, almost invariabley get their dogs from puppy mills.

If no one bought their dogs, if the BYB were NOT making cash, they BYB would eventually stop.