How Long Does It Take? -- Reliable Recall Training.

[johnny1609]

yes i can call them off there game, im in total control of my dogs at all times.

no the dog isnt rehomed for no recall, its rehomed if the dog is not upto scratch as a package. it should have perfect recall, perfect retrieve, jump, sit, stay and have good ability. if it has good ability but is lacking in one of the others i dont mind but i wont tolerate a useless dog.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"if it has good ability but is lacking in one of the others i dont mind but i wont tolerate a useless dog."//

If a dog is "useless", this says more about the owner,
than the dog.
My dog must have been considered "useless" as someone else DID throw him away, and i got him out of the death row box. He now knows all of the above tricks you list, plus about 60 more tricks and cues besides.

 

[johnny1609]

they arent tricks where i use them but manners andf a dog is useless to me if it doesnt do the job i require. sorry just my view

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"whats wrong with using force training? its not always possible to use positive only training"//

Johnny, how do you know this?
How do you know that positive-only training can not be used to train all dogs?

What's wrong with forced training, well, first off, i'm not entirely certain what YOU mean by that term, but ~IF~ you are referring to punishing dogs while training them??? IF that is what YOU mean by your remark (?) punishing a dog
~does not teach them what you DO want them to do instead.(MAIN reason)
~it can damage some dog's trust level in their owner
~it teaches the dog YOU do not have great self control
~it'd make ME as a person feel crappy to frighten or hurt a small creature
~it's just unnecessary.

~some methods can cause phyical damage (choke collars, for example, damage a dog's trachea)
~i feel pain reduces a dog's trust in a person, not "increase" their trust.
~it does not give a dog a chance to use his own mind to learn the new item you are teaching
~hurting or scaring dogs is NOT fun, either, dog training should be FUN!!!!!


Almost all dogs do want very very much to please you, if ONLY they understand what it IS you DO want them to do, and if only someone will help them develop the self control to do so.


Killer whales are clicker trained at SeaWorld. There is just NO way to scare, yank, frighten or hurt a 1-ton wild beast, no way to do it.
Yet, these wild beasts ARE trained to do fairly complex tricks, with zero punishment.

Many many other creatures can be clicker-trained, as well, like rats, chickens, goats, birds, elephants, lions, tigers, etc etc.

If using a clicker,
can get a 1-ton wild killer whale
to do egggggggzactly what YOU want,
it's worth trying on a 50 lb dog!!!!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

//" they arent tricks where i use them but manners andf a dog is useless to me if it doesnt do the job i require. sorry just my view"//

I totally support your right to have any view you wish to!!

but using another word, "tricks" vs "manners"
does not change a thing.

if the dog does not understand what you want done, the fault is the owners, not the dogs.

not just "my" view, but a plain fact.
dogs can not truly read our minds, much as we all marvel now and then, at signs the dog reads our minds, really, we are only teasing.
dogs can intuit now and then, it seems, but in fact, dogs have to told what we want them to do.

and trained to be able to do it. Whether you call the end result "tricks", or whether you prefer to call it "manners", to get a dog to do these behaviors on cue, requires training.

 

[running_dog]

~it teaches the dog YOU do not have great self control

Duh that IS so what I teach Zac and Gus when I run out of patience.
And yes I always feel miserable about it.

 

[tigerlily46514]

RunningDog, you make a great point, and slightly off topic, but, most of around here would probably agree, we learn a lot, WE humans, i mean,
when training dogs, don't we? We also learn a lot of things about ourselves, and we also develop skills ourselves, like patience, trust-building skills, etc etc.

 

[tigerlily46514]

Another clicker trained animal, taught to overcome his natural fear of fire,
with a clicker.
Circus animals are almost always clicker trained.

(before everyone jumps on me, i'm not suggesting i approve of such tricks being done, nor of the lives that circus animals lead ------------i'm just trying to help Johnny picture himself trying to intimidate THIS creature, to show positive-only training CAN be done to any creature-----so why not any DOG???????)

 

[running_dog]

Yeah! Lets accelerate the derail!

You're right I never learned so much about patience and trust building etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc until I got Zac.

And Gus is a whole new classroom .

 

[tigerlily46514]

well, there ARE dozens of threads on recall,
all over this forum,
but we don't get a lot of chances to compare clicker training to "forced" training every week.

I do not think all derails are useless,
and i think some derails might be helpful, informative and enlightening.

and no doubt, the thread can indeed resume it's original purpose once the main poster returns with his/her progress or question.

 

[tigerlily46514]

so Johnny, if you do have some questions or thoughts, on the clicker trained tigers or killer whales, since we've ALREADY derailed the thread, it's okay to post your ideas or reply to this.

and to those who want to discuss recall training, just jump over us, ha ha, and post on your topic or progress or further questions.

 

[running_dog]

LOL! I wasn't complaining... just amused

 

[tigerlily46514]

<---------does often win prize for most complete thread derails ever!!

 

[sara]

whats wrong with using force training? its not always possible to use positive only training

It is possible. It is very possible. and I for one do not appreciate hearing about force training on this forum. I come to this forum to talk about positive only training.

 

[tigerlily46514]

true enough, Sara, but who knows, maybe, just maybe, someone reading along might shift their opinion, so long as the person is not dogmatically tied to their beliefs, sometimes, just sometimes, a person who is logical, can indeed, gain new insights and new beliefs. I know i have changed my own opinions on some things by hanging around on DTA!!
til i heard someone else plant an idea in my head, i had a whole other idea, til i truly considered their idea, and realized, "that DOES make sense!!"
There are others, who think as Johnny does, and who knows, maybe they are reading along, and re-thinking their ideas.

but i hear your point, Sara, i do. I really do. You and i both care for previously abused dogs, so it probably is harder for us to hear about "forced" training.

still, discussions like these, well, one never knows for sure, when or where a seed of an idea planted might take root, maybe not right away, sometimes changes in a person's mindset can occur slowly over time.
but, it seems a shame to waste an opportunity to try to enlighten another to the possibilities of positive-only dog training. I hope this member does stick around, i hope he does, and i hope he does keep an open, logical mind about dog training methods. He does not strike me as a troll, just someone who has a different belief system...........so far, anyway. and like many of us, he might develop a new understanding of it, if he keeps an open mind, it's not impossible.

 

[johnny1609]

I don't think we have the same understanding of force training here people, to me forced training is making a dog do something without them realising til it becomes a habit.

Forced recall - putting the dog on a long line and as soon as you call it gently pull the dog in, no harm or pain caused

Forced retrieving - stand in the hallway making sure your stood the dogs bed end of the hallway with all exits closed and chuck the item you wish the to retrieve, the dog will naturally try and get past you with the item allowing you to take it of them.

Obviously praise is involved in this, I also class the old methods of teaching sit and other things as forced where you push there bum down etc.

 

[johnny1609]

Also I've not really put my point across very well in regard to rehoming of dogs, prior to the hunting ban I hunted larger game and fast game, I hunted fox,deer and hare so I needed a dog that was fast enough to catch a roe deer in a straight line, had the tenacity to take fox even after being bit multiple times but also have the agility to catch a hare after a long course. I'm afraid if a dog didn't meet these standards I'd get rid of it but now with the hunting ban the pup has a lot less to live upto to, basically only catch rabbits but she will have to do it to a good level.

 

[tigerlily46514]

I did mention that i might not understand what YOU mean by "forced" training. i am still not 100% certain what exactly it is, but, so long as you are not hurting or intimidating the dogs.

I also think dogs are incredibly clever, and can figure out many many many things, many things.


It's great that you are here, as that is NOT how anyone teaches "sit" anymore, especially not to puppies, since it's been proven that puppy hips are very susceptible to damage at those ages, as are some breeds even when adults.

Much much easier way to train,
that you--AND your dog------ might find more pleasant, is called "luring".
You lure the dog to sit, by holding the treat up higher and higher, maybe back over his head a bit, til he sits. CLICK!!! AND TREAT!
dogs get it right away, once you use a clicker. dogs LOVE clicker training, and once you bring out the clicker, WOW, the dogs run over, all tail-waggy and happy, and "put on their thinking caps".

But there are many other ways to train beside luring. Some ppl here are big fans of "free shaping" a trick,
and also there is "capturing" a trick.
there are even other ways, and several ppl here do have their favorite ways.

Here, we ignore, or interrupt all wrong moves (but usually ignore) and click! when dog does the correct move. OH, Johnny, you won't beleive how much faster your dog "gets it" once you get a clicker. I myself, resisted getting one forever,
others here egged me on to try one. I still resisted, thinking, "I am teaching tricks and cues just fine without a clicker, and i don't want to be chained to some gizmo"
but wow,
once i ever DID try one, wow, my dog "gets it" sooooo much faster. All my friends think i have some kind of "super-genius" dog, but, it's just i use a clicker .

Learning how to correctly use a clicker, does take a lil practice, and there is a short list of do's and don'ts, too.

Also, maybe we got confused, cuz you said positive only training might not work for "all" dogs.
Still, considering it works on tigers, and killer whales,
you might re-consider the idea, right? that if "positive only" training (clicker training is positive only) works on all creatures, it seems likely it works on all dogs, too, right?


Everyone here, 100s and 100s and 100s of us,
with alllll kinds of dogs,
all types of breeds,
all ages of dogs, from puppies to elderly dogs,
with all kinds of personalities and various problems,
all of us are being successful at positive-only training........with all these various and diverse dogs, no two alike.......still, all of us have taught our dogs multiple cues using positive only methods..

true, true, some of us hit a roadblock here or there,
teaching this or that cue, or running up against this or that problem,
and when we do,
we jsut post it here,
and someone else will help us figure out a way around a roadblock, if we ever do hit one.
I hope you do give a try,
and i hope you are not as stubborn as *i* was about putting off trying a clicker.

don't be shy if you want to learn how to properly use a clicker.
it even works on tigers.

 

[tigerlily46514]

and in fact, not sure, but ~IF~ i am understanding "forced" training, (it is a terrible name, lol)
some of us here, when teaching our dogs to walk backwards on cue,
did indeed line up chairs to "force" dog to walk in a straight line, as dogs do tend to curl as they back up, and we wanted a straight line instead.

but none of us push hard on our dogs to get them to do stuff, not like the strength one would have to use to "force" a sit. Luring is way easier, safer for the dog's hips, and FUN!!!!!!

btw, i don't think you'll have any trouble finding a dog who will catch rabbits, lots and lots of dogs do that...mmmHmm.

 

[648117]

Johnny, I think you would have "gotten rid" of many peoples dogs and not just for recall problems.
You wouldn't have even got most of them in the first place (eg, Cavalier and Pug cross) so you wouldn't even know (I assume, but I may be wrong) what it is like to have a non-working dog.

And what happens if one of your dogs doesn't come back? if your out hunting or whatever then there probably isn't so much chance of it being hit my a car or being attacked by another dog (unless you live somewhere that there are wild animals that can eat your dog) but there is also a high incentive for it to come back.

If you have more then one dog (a pack of hunting dogs) and have a cue to call them all back at once then the newest dog will learn from the other ones (it won't want to be left behind) so the new dog will learn faster then if it were on its own (eg, as a family pet).

And there is the whole scale thing, most dog's, I think, will come back (or stop and wait) if they get too far away from their owner but at a park or something there might not be the space for them to reach that limit before a danger appears.