Beginning Vocabulary Lessons

[JazzyandVeronica]

We just started...but I thought it would be useful to teach Veronica the names of everyday items that she interacts with...

(I also shot the vid w/ my new Canon Powershot s100 on the high def 1280 setting.)

 

[Pawtential Unleashed]

I love it! And the new camera looks great - very nice.

A couple of things I noticed - promise I am not picking on you - just noting:
Between 00:15 and 00:25, V is exhibiting some signs of stress - she first offers you some avoidance behaviors then a stress yawn.
At 1:00 or so, she offers an ear pin.

Maybe try turning the TV off so you are not competing with it and asking for the behaviors in a softer voice?

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

I love it! And the new camera looks great - very nice.

A couple of things I noticed - promise I am not picking on you - just noting:
Between 00:15 and 00:25, V is exhibiting some signs of stress - she first offers you some avoidance behaviors then a stress yawn.
At 1:00 or so, she offers an ear pin.

Maybe try turning the TV off so you are not competing with it and asking for the behaviors in a softer voice?

Good points.

I did notice that too.

Veronia finds any training stressful. She does not like getting things wrong. Even a verbal correction upsets her...which is hard because sometimes you need someone to tell you that you are wrong about something in order to learn it right...I think...

I try to set things up so Veronica only gets the positive...but sometimes I can't help myself from just telling her something is wrong. Even if you just don't treat her if it is wrong and tell her "try again", she gets really upset and exasperated.

Excellent point about the TV though; learning to listen for verbal prompts is much harder for her than hand signals...so the extra noise of the TV is likely creating a distraction.

I try, try , try to use a softer voice and to be more...warm/fuzzy. It just isn't me. Not that I don't feel it, that's just not naturally how I communicate...so I have to remember to try...and then it feels unnatural coming out...but I do need to keep trying for Veronica!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

GREAT IDEA!!!

//"Even a verbal correction upsets her...which is hard because sometimes you need someone to tell you that you are wrong about something in order to learn it right...I think..."//

i don't think so.
My dog now knows over 120 tricks and cues,
and never ever once,
not once,
have i ever ever said the word "no" or "ah ah" or anything, ever, while trick training.

My dog ALSO is very very "soft", and it breaks his heart in pieces if he is ever even told "no" ,
oh wow, he is so crushed. Luckily for buddy, in the years we've had him, i can count on one hand the times he has ever ever heard the word "no".
and so far as Buddy knows,
there is zero risk of ever ever hearing that dreaded "no" when he is learning or doing tricks. so far as Buddy knows, it's FUN FUN FUN!!!

Yeah, i use my happy voice, and heavily praise my dog. I've read that other members say their dog gets too excited if they praise their dog,
but *my* dog quits if i shut up, so for Buddy, i have to praise him each correct move, in a very happy tone, which i often suspect means more to Buddy than the treat!

 

[tigerlily46514]

Here is another idea,
on increasing a dog's vocabulary.

this here idea,
can lead to all types of tricks, games, and jokes (read reply #4)
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/naming-new-toys-as-they-are-introduced-to-dog.4245/

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

//have i ever ever said the word "no" or "ah ah" or anything, ever, while trick training.//

What do you do when your dog does the wrong thing? I mean not even close...not even an approximation...when there is no way in the world you could possibly rationalize that what he just did is in any way even remotely associated with what you are trying to teach him...

and he looks at you like, "I'll have that treat now thank you"??

I have tried to just move along and not treat her; but she will stop everything and bark at me to tell me I need to give her the treat!

How do you learn to do the right thing if you get treats no matter what, right or wrong?

So so far it's either been give her the treat or tell her she didn't get it right.

How do you tell a dog, "you didn't get it right, but you can have a treat anyway"...and why does a dog keep on working to get it right if it isn't the promise of earning a treat? (Veronica does not work for the sake of working, she needs to be PAID) .

I really would love to be able to eliminate having to tell her she's wrong, I know it will be better for her self esteem...but how do you handle these situations when they are blatently...wrong; and then help them get it right?

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"What do you do when your dog does the wrong thing? I mean not even close"//

I stand there silently.
no click, no treat.
and we try again.
OR
If my dog is displaying frustration, (like most of us, i do know my dog!lol!)
i sometimes offer up a trick or cue i KNOW he will perform well,
and click/treat THAT.
Doing this seems to satisfy my dog, lol,
and then, we return to the harder trick, or, i end lesson for now.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"How do you learn to do the right thing if you get treats no matter what, right or wrong? "//

I never reward the wrong thing.
(or very rarely, by accident, i might click at wrong thing, but that is not common for me)

Picture the killer whales being clicker trained.........no way to 'correct' a killer whale. nope. can't be done.

yet, by ONLY REWARDING the correct moves, or moves in right direction,
and silently ignoring wrong moves,
the humans DO get those wild beasts to do just eggggggggggzactly what they want,
without ever ever saying "no".

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"So so far it's either been give her the treat or tell her she didn't get it right."//


You could give a cue Veronica DOES know well,
CLICK/TREAT THAT,
and then, return to the lesson at hand.




worth a try.
also, you might want to try any of the ideas in reply #3 in thread below, LIKE move lesson to new area, to perk up dog's interest:
http://www.dogtrickacademy.com/members/forums/threads/getting-started-with-a-clicker-for-newbies.5023/

YOU CAN DO IT, JAZZY!!! you also might want to try a clicker, who knows, if you say Veronica is always stressed during lessons, maybe, maybe, if you do try a clicker, who knows, V might get a whole new idea, starting over from scratch? and the new clicker, might also help you from reflexively pointing out each time Veronica messed up, too, it'd be whole new start for both of you!!!

 

[tigerlily46514]

i think Veronica is very very lucky dog, to have a human who IS so interested, willing to try so hard, to teach her things!! LUCKY DOG!!

 

[southerngirl]

What do you do when your dog does the wrong thing?

I just ignore it and have her try to do what I asked again if she sill doesn't get it I will go back a step if she seems frustrated still I have her do a trick she already know than I end with that. The next time you go to try and teach her again it may click "OHH mom wants me to do this"

 

[southerngirl]

If I ever correct Missy who is very sensitive she will go to her corner with her tail tucked and roll over(this is just with a simple no or ah ah not yelling) so I never correct her.

she gets really upset and exasperated

Like Veronica Missy gets upset if she isn't getting it she will tail tucked and roll over(I do not yell at her or loose my patience) I just use a happy voice to coax her over to me and I'll pet her(I stop training because she seems to shut down.)

 

[southerngirl]

Great Job by the way. I just might do that with Missy to teach her to fetch her leash on command. Great idea

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

Ok guys GREAT suggestion...

I will ask her for another easy cue that she knows and reward that. That makes perfect sense and that way it will keep things fun for her and be less stressful.

Also SG you make a good point; I have to be more cognizant of Veronica's sensitivity. I just think she is a really smart dog; but her emotions get in the way...and I think I get frustrated that she is SOOOOO sensitive!!!! I thought I was getting a big tough dog; and I got Scarlet O'Hara in dog form.

I do use a clicker TL (not all the time for everything, but for this I have been); however Veronica gets upset if she feels she is right and I don't acknowledge it with a treat whether I have clicked or not.

 

[tigerlily46514]

//"however Veronica gets upset if she feels she is right and I don't acknowledge it with a treat whether I have clicked or not. "//


you mean when you tell her "NO, that is wrong"
or when you just don't click/treat?
EVERY click gets a treat.

she may even be associating NOT getting a treat with "NO" to some extent ??
You can also back up to last step where V was successful, and click/treat that, and end lesson.
Buddy also gets honked off if he is not getting it, so i usually will break it down to even smaller steps so he CAN succeed.

and if he is REALLY not getting it at all, like i said in that reply of ideas to try,
sometimes, i shelve the entire trick,
teach other tricks for a few weeks,
and THEN re-introduce the hard trick, and WA-LA! NOW buddy "gets it". No idea why that works, but it does.

You can try moving to new area, out in the yard, new different room. sometimes that perks up a dog's interest, too.


i also always tell my dog "all done" when lesson is over, too,
and then play with him, I always play with him after every lesson,
to help further push the idea that training is FUN,
and to help him release any excitement, and so he can realize "lesson is over"

 

[tigerlily46514]

aw, lots of dogs are very "soft".
there are lots of dogs, who just can not bear rejection, "no", correction, etc.

You are not alone, mine can't bear it at all, not at all. Lotsa dogs are like that. I even think the smarter the dog, maybe the more they can not take it.

plus, corrections are not very effective, teaches a dog nothing,
compared to rewarding what you DO want.

 

[Mutt]

I haven't read anything (so I don't know if this has already been said):
sometimes Mazzel also gets kind of frustrated when he offers behavior but it isn't the behavior that I want, I'll treat him if he gets 'upset' (continuing to offer the 'wrong' behavior and looking at me like 'treat please!') but I don't click. that way mazzel will move forward but also knows that although he got a treat, it wasn't because he offered desired behavior.

 

[tigerlily46514]

well, that might confuse some dogs, getting a reward for doing it wrong....or for doing wrong trick than you asked for.

lol, does look like there ARE several of us with dogs who can get antsy during training. Buddy usually settles down once we get going, if he gets antsy. I just ask for a known trick, reward THAT, and then, move back to trick we are working on again, seems to satisfy Buddy anyway.

 

[Mutt]

I don't know if it works for other dogs but because I don't click (or use my click word), Mazzel knows that its not because he did the right behavior.
And its not like I praise him everytime he does something wrong but only when he offers the wrong behavior 3 times in a row and I see he doesn't really understand what to do (even if I go back a/several step(s)).
like when I want a touch with his muzzel and he starts hitting the object with his paw (and gets frustrated because he isn't getting a treat).
So that treat calms him down.

thats also something I do! usually a very easy trick/a trick mazzel likes

 

[JazzyandVeronica]

//you mean when you tell her "NO, that is wrong"
or when you just don't click/treat?//

Yes, that's what I mean. It goes like like:

"eh eh...try again"
"Bark, bark, puff, puff...give me the treat woman, I earned it"!!

Veronica also goes through this weird phase...where she seems to...get it completely.

Then the next time, it is like she never did it, and doesn't get...which is confusing;

then after a few more times she "gets it"... I try to play with Veronica after training too...but she is a weird dog...she doesn't always feel like playing...

She has to be in the mood for something. Like you can give her her favorite treat/chew...a bully stick...and if she isn't "in the mood" it will just sit there on the floor or she'll walk away. Other times she practically falls over herself to get it.
I will keep trying to make things more fun and less pressure though; I'll just have to keep trying different things. Thank you for all the suggestions!