Using The "ah" Sound To Pinpoint When Dog Has Gotten Up Without Permission... Your Thoughts?

[MissyBC]

Hello there.

I was just wondering... if I put Missy in a sit or down and she gets up out of position without permission (I do reward her with a treat for doing the correct thing in the first place), either I will say "ah" or walk up to her and place her back without saying anything. Which do you think is the better way? Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. What should I do?

*I prefer just walking up to her and placing her back, that way I don't feel like I'm constantly correcting her ("ah").* What do you do?


Also, when Muse our cat meows, and she goes crazy if I'm not in the room I just ignore it until she loses interest or say "shh" and she occasionally will quiet down. I was wondering if I was doing it right? Thoughts on this would also be very much appreciated.

What's your view on"be the pack leader" aspect of owning a dog/border collie? Sometimes my mom thinks I'm "too soft" with Missy. Is there such a thing as being too soft? Help?

I want to make sure I'm doing it right, and I want to do it all positively of course!

Thanks for all the help, in advance!

 

[tigerlily46514]

I use the cue "shhhh" to silence my dog barking, so maybe that is similar to the using word "ahh" for dogs getting up.


I did teach that, "shhh" as a specific cue, rewarding even a moment of silence,
then two moments of silence,
and slowly extending the time req'd,
He came to understand, "ohhh, shhh means stop barking/be silent".
You could probably teach this cue to your cat, too. Or give the cat more stuff to do.

A TIRED PET
IS A GOOD PET.

For breaking a stay, I say nothing, and simply replace the dog, give cue again, no "ah" but others may be doing it otherwise. My particular dog, is not expected to hold a sit or anything, unless he is told to "stay".

But i do have a strong opinion, a very strong opinion, on this whole "pack" theory nonsense. I am so annoyed at dog whisperer for spreading so so so much NONSENSE through the tv onto so many ppl. shiver. Now, i do agree with *some* things he says, like i much appreciate his emphasis on how much dogs DO need excercise, i stand up and applaud that idea.

Boredom is often at the root of many problems for pets.


but soooooooooo much of his crapola should be rebutted. I like "It's Me or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell. She is all positive.

pack leader? Dogs do not see us as the same creature they are, for starters. Dogs fully recognize we are not elongated clever dogs with thumbs.
Using force, or intimidation, is not the way to go with children or dogs, imo. Getting them to TRUST you, is the way to go, imo.

Dogs are naturally eager to please us. All dogs are. That is- IF IF IF IF the dog knows what we DO want them to do., and if the dog has been helped to learn the skills neccessary to do the cue or behavior.

Hollering out a dog, or yanking their collars, or dawg forbid, hitting the small creature, will NOT teach the dog one thing, except that you have poor self control. The dog will in no way understand what it is you DO want him to do.

If you want my vote, i vote you do respect your lil canine pal, by showing him what you DO want him to do, and not ever resorting to trying to scare him, or hurt him. I've never so much as raised my voice to my dog, and my dog loves me to pieces, and is a very obedient, respectful dog, and he and i have never ever discussed "who is pack leader".

 

[tigerlily46514]

If THIS is what a "pack leader" looks like, i don't wanna be one:
(IF you can stomach watching this)

 

[MissyBC]

Using force, or intimidation, is not the way to go with children or dogs, imo. Getting them to TRUST you, is the way to go, imo.

I would never use force or intimidation with Missy (that's definitely a no-no). Trust is what I figured was what was correct (and that's what I've been using!).

Thanks tigerlily!

 

[tigerlily46514]

OH, i know enough about you already, Missy BC, to know *you* do not mistreat your beloved dog in any way, i was referring to the "pack leader" (show him who is boss) mentality, which seems to encourage intimidating and yanking on dogs. Not "you" you! lolz, sorry.

Maybe get your mom to watch a few episodes of "It's Me or The Dog" tv show, to help her get a new idea on how to help dogs..? and keep your mom away from "Dog Whisperer"!!

 

[sara]

While I hate CM and "Pack Theory" I also believe that a dog needs rules. I train almost completely using PR (things like "ah" I will use now and then, so not completely PR) But I am not too soft on my dogs, and they're not spoiled. They must move out of my way, they may not jump up unless asked, they may not get on the bed or chair unless asked, they may not whine or bark for attention, and they may not go through doors before me.

I dont have these rules because of pack theory, or dominance... it's just good manners. I dont want my dogs going through doors first because I cant control what's on the other side of the door unless I'm there first. I dont like dogs bugging or whining, so it's completely ignored, and has stopped. I dont like tripping over dogs, so they must stay away from my feet. And I HATE the dogs jumping up on my bed or my chair before I'm ready for them... so they must wait until given permission.

You can train using PR without sacrificing rules and spoiling the dog.

 

[MissyBC]

Thanks sara and tigerlily for your input!

 

[MissyBC]

OH, i know enough about you already, Missy BC, to know *you* do not mistreat your beloved dog in any way, i was referring to the "pack leader" (show him who is boss) mentality, which seems to encourage intimidating and yanking on dogs. Not "you" you! lolz, sorry.

That made me smile.

Maybe get your mom to watch a few episodes of "It's Me or The Dog" tv show, to help her get a new idea on how to help dogs..? and keep your mom away from "Dog Whisperer"!!

It's "It's Me or the Dog" or "Kikopup" tv from now on! LOL

 

[tigerlily46514]

Lol, i did like Sara's post, too! She makes a great point, dogs DO need rules! and even positive only trainers can indeed, set up rules.
And my dog has most but not all of the same rules as she likes, too.

If Buddy were a very pushy type of dog, i might have whole other set of rules, but my dog is almost too respectful, so my rules are different for this dog, than for our last dog, who was a bit pushy/demanding.
I imagine, besides general house rules,--------- i bet EACH DOG needs their own types of rules, depending on how that dog acts..My last dog was a bit pushy/dominant/demanding , so he had other rules that we do not worry about with Buddy, at all.


Buddy isn't allowed to pester us. He *is* allowed to poke us with his nose, once. (his cue to go outside, or he is getting bored) once. But not repeatedly. (i put him in lie down, if i am sure he doesn't need out)
But, most of the time, after he lies down, later i will start teaching him some trick, give him something to do, play with him, walk him.

But he IS allowed onto the sofa or bed, (but, we only have 1 dog) and it only took me 3 years to convince him that was okay. Buddy is soooooooooo uber polite and respectful, he would not get on our bed, or the sofa, ever.
Even if we asked him to,
he'd only stay up there a short while, never fully relaxed, and quickly jumped back down. We continued to encourage him to do so, and praise him for being up there,
still, years go by, Buddy thinks he only belongs on the floor.
but just this year,
finally
Buddy will now occasionally get on the sofa for a lil nap, even if no one is asking him to! YAY!! He will now get onto our bed, by himself (if no one is in it at the time.) YAY!

He still wont' get into our bed if both of us are in it, or he won't stay long.
But only one of us, he will, now, if asked, and he will relax now, even sleep. YAY!

Buddy even has his own chair in the living room, which mostly only he sits in.

and i love love love it when Buddy sits by my feet, although, he won't rest his head on my feet....yet. I keep sliding my feet under him, and praising him, so who knows? Maybe someday, "Mr Polite" will lay his head right on my feet.

but, he is only 1 dog, so each home must have their own rules, to fit their needs or wishes. or that particular dog.

My dog isn't allowed to jump on ppl, or go in/out of the house, or in/out of a car, until asked.
He has to sit when i open the door to see who is there.

He isn't allowed to bark his head off outside, no matter who or what is going by the house. He has a two-bark limit in the yard, and he knows this.

He can and will hold a stay wherever i place him, (so handy), almost no matter what. (almost). Buddy seems to understand when to stay out of our space, if we doing chores, he just never seems "underfoot" but instead, stays over to the side if we are running around busy.
Even if i'm cooking, he will stay in same room and admire the task, but Buddy is not right by my feet, but across the room a bit, not in the paths i use to cook. If he was under my feet, i'd have to teach not to be, but, he isn't. He is very very respectful dog.

My dog almost never gets a treat or scrap of food for no reason. He has to do a trick or cue, to earn it.

Buddy isn't allowed to beg at the table/stare at ppl who are eating.<---this one we do have to re-remind him now and then, lolz, because *some* people in my family are not following the rule, although they will ask a trick first before tossing a scrap.

Buddy isn't allowed to take any object off any table, nor jump up onto the tv set if a dog or bunny is on tv. (he still wants to, though).

Buddy does not touch any item which is not "his", even if it is on the floor, nor does he counter-surf, nor get in trash, or anything at all. Buddy will leave alone any object he is asked to, even if he is home alone.
Buddy isn't allowed to leave his front yard, (which is not fenced). Just lots of lil rules, if i stop to think them all....


AND some rules we don't have:
Buddy IS allowed to run laps inside the house, and we encourage and enjoy this show. "Go, Buddy, go!"
Buddy IS allowed to herd his collection of laundry baskets all around the house, too, and we praise that, too.
Other ppl might find those 2 behaviors annoying, but *we* love them. I'm so used to those, i forget how those behaviors look to others, til i see some visitor staring wide eyed as Buddy runs through head-butting some basket across the floor, then i realize, it does look odd.

Buddy is good dog, even during baths or nail clippings, or the removal of an occasional tick, etc. He will do pretty much anything i ask him to, if he can.

If he did have bad habits, i'd have to add rules to prevent it. I think, that besides general house rules, each dog probably gets a customized list of rules depending on what that dog needs. My last dog had a whole other list, lolz.

I do rarely use the word "ah" or "no", i do, but never for tricks training.
Almost all Buddy's rules, he learned as cues by positive only. I cant' think of last time i ever told him no, but, i'm sure i have at some point.

 

[MissyBC]

...and yet another print-out for me to re-read. Thanks, tigerlily!

 

[tigerlily46514]

oH, MissyBC, *your* rules may become yet a whole other lists of rules, for your particular home, and your particular dog. I'd bet, many of us dog guardians, share many rules the same, but, i bet we also have unique rules for our own dogs. Multi-dog homes have probably whole other set of rules, too.

 

[mewzard]

My dog is taught manners not rules.
I am slightly different in my thinking but follow the same ideals as the others - i do believe in 'pack-theory' (that there is a hierarchy in a group) but not dominance theory (i don't believe the Alpha rubbish). I am in charge in my household... be that with the kids or the dogs!. I have my rules, and i expect them to be followed ..."you don't listen = you don't get" is a common saying in my house.

That doesn't mean, though, that i'm alpha rolling, hitting with newspapers, " nudging" *cough*kicking*cough*, or anything negative. It does mean however that if you(the dog) want to go out you sit at the doorway, wait whilst i open the door and give me eye contact before exiting,.... that yes your dinner is in the bowl but you must do something to earn it (an easy trick), you wait to exit the car. You may sit on the chairs aslong as you lay down and don't use them to scope out the front for dogs.

Tigerlily - I get that bit about Buddy not feeling like he should be on the sofa, and wanting him to rest on your feet. Twice in the past 3 weeks Oka has fallen asleep with her head on my leg.....i was terrified to move incase she got off - she isn't really affectionate in that way and i was SOO happy!!

 

[MissyBC]

oH, MissyBC, *your* rules may become yet a whole other lists of rules, for your particular home, and your particular dog. I'd bet, many of us dog guardians, share many rules the same, but, i bet we also have unique rules for our own dogs. Multi-dog homes have probably whole other set of rules, too.

Your list of rules (manners, as Oka puts it), is a good base for me to work off of, though.

 

[Anneke]

My dogs are allowed on the sofa/bed, as long as I can still be on there too We actually have the boys couch and the girls couch
Jinx sleeps in our bed I just love, love, love that. She is mostly at the bottom end, curled up against my legs and with her head on my feet or leg. As soon as my boyfriend gets up for work, she will move to his spot, with her head on his pillow. Cooper chooses to sleep on the floor(on his blanket or pillow) or lately he will lie on the couch, downstairs. Our bed just isn't big enough for all of us But when my alarm goes, he will come and give me a big wake up cuddle.
They do know that when we have visitors, they are not allowed on the couch, unless invited.
My dogs also beg My boyfriend believes firmly in sharing his food with the dogs... But they do this in a way that does not bother us, so no drewling. They just sit besides us. Cooper gives a paw if he really, really wants something and can point out what he wants, by staring at it But again, when we have visitors, they know how to behave and will wait untill they get something.
We go through the door first, this is because our frontdoor opens directly to a street. Well there is a narrow sidewalk, but my dogs charging out have scared people more than once. Not that they are agressive or guarding our house, but simply because they suddenly pop out.
Jinx follows me all around the house, so when I am cooking, she is behind me. Lying down, but always right next to me. We are used to stepping over our dogs, something I never used to do, but since Cooper has had severe growing pains and some backproblems we did not want him to get up everytime . But he knows not to get up, when we step over him. I have been tripping over Jinx a few times, though... So I want her to move away, if I need to pass her.
Of course they may not take anything from the table, and they don't.
To some people it may sound like our dogs have no rules. But like Tigerlily said, if it was necessary these rules would be adjusted to the dog.

Jinx barks. She is, ofcourse, an Aussie. So if she is excited, she barks. I try to keep her from going nuts and most of the time, she is ok. But when she barks for no reason, like when she responds to a dog barking on tv, or outside, I say: thank you! or Done!

Anyway, I do use a NO REWARD MARKER when training. When I ask for a down stay and she breaks position, I say: Wrong! and take her back to her spot and give the cue again. In agility I say wrong or OHOH, I never use a NO.
Actually I only use NO when their behaviour is unacceptable. Digging on the couch, jumping up at people, eating stuff off the street, etc.

And yes, I believe in the term packleader, but not the Cesar way. I believe a packleader can earn respect in a kind way, not by yerking, kicking and all that. I do think he has a lot of good things to say, but I do not agree with his old fashioned idea of dominating a dog.
I do use some dominating behaviours, like leaning over my dog, to show them I mean it. And if they don't listen, I wil "nosebite" Sound horrible doesn't it? But it is only putting my hand over the back of their nose, like a dog puts his mouth over another dogs nose to prove a point. I don't hurt the dog, I don't squeeze, I just hold my hand over their nose. Kind of when you hold a child by the chin to make them look at you when you are mad at them. I don't know if this makes any sence to you, I not I can film it, so you can understand what I mean.
I don't use this often, only when I have to snap them out of it.

 

[fickla]

I think a lot has been said already about being a pack leader, but I wanted to touch on your first question.

Using a verbal marker to pinpoint the break in stay depends on the dog and what your goals are. Since my goals are to eventually have a 3+min out of sight sit stay and a 5+min out of sight down stay for obedience competitions, I want a dog who is very confident in not just staying in location but holding the proper position. With a SOFT dog, using a marker such as "Ah" can chip away at that confidence. When it comes to a stress of a competition the dog could be more likely to stress based on the tiny little corrections it has received and this can result in problems. I try and make sure the stay exercises are as positive as they can be and that means setting my dog up for success. If my dog does break position I usually calmly repeat the verbal cue to sit (or down) and step in a bit closer. But they shouldn't be breaking or I have pushed them too far. If your goal is out of sight work then it is all about confidence. If you don't care about that then a tiny verbal correction shouldn't matter and I do use it in every day exercises around the house.

 

[charmedwolf]

A no reward verbal marker can be good to use like fickla said but for more soft dogs it won't work and they can shut down because of it. What I usually do is command them to 'stay' then if they move I'll quietly go put them back. After they stay for a second or two I'll let them go. I feel that if the dog can not hold a stay it is because the situation is too hard for the dog to be in right now, not because they just want to annoy the human. Which is rather hard for some people to understand.

And on the note of being the "pack leader", I prefer to think of myself as a benevolent leader. I ask myself in a certain situation what would I do if my neice or nephew did that (I don't have kids lol). Though for some people they don't treat their kids well nevermind their animals.

Also, as someone with 8 dogs in the house at any given time, manner are required for keeping the peace for both human and animal. I try to make the rules fair for everyone but the older dogs are given more privileges because they are more trusted and better trained. For example, Meatball and Jersey (15lbs and 10lbs respectfully) are more than welcome to jump on someone's lap if asked but Chloe, Kona, Kratos and Tre (120lb, 140lb, 150lb and 90lbs respectfully) aren't allowed to lay on people but they can lay beside them. It might not be fair but life isn't fair.

 

[running_dog]

I do use "ah" or "bah" but not in a training context. I'd normally only use it as an emergency interruption (normally it doesn't work but reassures bystanders that I am at least trying ) . If I find myself using it during training it is time to stop training. Zac does shut down FAST when using a no reward marker, so if I use it I have to make absolutely certain that he succeeds for the rest of the session.

And....

Down with Cesar Milan! I think I have evolved a theory of mutual respect rather than leadership or dominance. LOL my dog isn't the brightest in the world but I'm sure he knows I have 2 legs while he has 4! To me dogs don't have "good" or "bad" behaviour, they just have behaviour, it is up to us to shape that behaviour to something we want by catching them doing what we want them to do.
If a dog is never "bad" why would we tell it off?
If I lose my patience and punish Zac which of us is being bad?

BTW those are rhetorical questions...

 

[Pawbla]

I personally prefer to go back and put him back in the position, usually I first ask him to get up, we do a small circle walking, and then as him again to lay down and stay. The circle is because he and many dogs are less likely to get up again if one does that.

While I don't agree with Cesar Millan, Dogs do imprinting like every other animal, including humans. Humans raised by wild animals imprint on those animals. I fight against imprinting every time I get a baby bird. They imprint easily and you can't let them go if they do. Same goes for dogs. They are constantly surrounded and cared by people when they are young, so they imprint on humans. I'm pretty sure they just see us like a different "breed", they don't handle the "species" concept. They handle "this is a prey" and "this could kill me" and "this is my kind", but I doubt they make a difference unless it's needed for survival. A dog makes no difference between a poodle and a great dane, and he doesn't make a difference either between a dog and a human.

The thing about him is while he has some right ideas, his technique is the one that's lacking. You become a pack leader by setting rules for your dogs, making him work for his food (have him do a sit, or a down, or whatever before feeding), teaching obedience and deciding boundaries. Not by intimidating, punishing, or pinning your dog to the ground. That only makes you aggressive, which is not a quality of a leader. A dog leader ("alpha") is usually the most balanced dog, not the most dominant or the most aggressive or the most submissive. You have to be balanced and apply the "nothing in life is free" philosophy, and you'll be a good, benevolent leader.

His "energy" ideas are somewhat right. Dogs know what we feel, not for that energy crap, but by smelling. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that "animals smell fear", well, they can smell everything we're feeling. If we're feeling relaxed and confident, they will know, they will also know when we're frustrated and when we are sad, just by smelling.

His techniques are awful. I don't know how people have the stomach to watch it.

 

[running_dog]

A dog makes no difference between a poodle and a great dane, and he doesn't make a difference either between a dog and a human.

My dog does actually respond very very differently to dogs and humans. He is very bossy and in your face with all dogs (irrespective of size and shape) and he is very mellow with all humans (irrespective of size and position)

 

[Dlilly]

When Chance, my foster dog, gets up from a stay, I Don't punish him or anything, I just go back a step. That usually works with him. If he does a good job with stay with me moving a few steps away, I'll move little bit farther. I set him up for success.