Dazzle's Rabbit Story,and Photo Down Walpole,western Australia

[karleee]

We're staying at restpoint,a holiday park,down walpole,western australia at the moment for a holiday.



i walked over to the walpole golf course with dazzle,set her loose on a bunch of rabbits,they had a headstart,she was soon RIGHT on their tails!...then as soon as i wistled for her,she came straight back.Then she went for a group of ducks,they flew into the pond,dazzle jumped in...no hesitations,and is swimming after them....then on our way back,some family had taken their 2 kids out "bug catching" and they had a yorkshire terrier,well dazzle thought that this dog was a rabbit,and was trying to chase and herd it,and she thought that the family were going to harm me,so she stood there,hacles up,teeth beared,snarling and growling at them,when all they did was come over to get their dog,which wasn't near dazzle,because she scared it away...i my little 9 month bordercollie/Kelpie!,what a legend!





This is dazzle over-looking the walpole inlet:

 

[southerngirl]

That is to funny that she thought the Yorkshire terrier was a rabbit.
Knowing that your dog loves you so much that they we'll protect you is a great feeling. My Missy does the same thing, it makes you proud having a dog that wants to protect you.

 

[karleee]

She is a real friendly dog,but if she think anything/anyone is going to hurt me...she isn't afraid to protect

 

[charmedwolf]

dazzle thought that this dog was a rabbit,and was trying to chase and herd it,and she thought that the family were going to harm me,so she stood there,hacles up,teeth beared,snarling and growling at them,when all they did was come over to get their dog,which wasn't near dazzle,because she scared it away.

This is beyond dangerous, not cute. I'm sorry but if your dog did that to Meatball or Jersey I would have kick it. There is no reason for her to be allowed to chase or herd another dog. None. I'm suprised their parents didn't have a few choice words with you for endangering their dog and children.

Also, her standing there hackles up, teeth bared isn't cute as well. It's not being protective, it's dangerous. This is an insecure dog. It could attack a child unprovocted because it's "threatening" you. If you are trying to train her to be a Personal Protection Dog. Stop! You don't need a PPD, almost nobody needs a PPD. It might seem cool to have a dog that is willing to protect you without thought but it is more dangerous than having a loaded gun without a safety with your finger glued to the trigger. PPDs are dangerous. The trouble with most PPD training is the foundation requires the dog to start looking at the world in terms of "who/what might try to attack my master?"

A true PPD is not the kind of dog most people want, or can handle. It makes life stressful for the dog, which is why temperament testing is so dang important for these guys. The whole world is viewed as a potential threat, and the dog assess constantly how and when those threats become something to worry about. It elevates the dog's suspicion. For some dogs, this can make life stressful and unpleasant.

Some dogs can be considered a dog capable of protection work. Which to me is different, but harder to achieve with most dogs due to the intellect involved in understanding the "time and place" theory. Most dogs don't have the capacity to be turned on and off like that. Schutzhund dogs unterstand the "time and place" while PPDs are supposed to

A trained protection dog will not attack with out provocation and then a command. An untrained dog is more likely to attack without provocation regardless of command. Dogs with high aggression levels will attack with out provocation regardless. It's best to catch Dazzle before her aggression gets worse. Otherwise, you might not like the result.

 

[karleee]

She did even herd it-she tried too,as she was on the leash,also....dazzle stopped when i told her too-I told her to stop and she did,or she wold've gotten a good smack.She is a VERY friendly dog,while on holidays...kids and adults were comming up to her and pating her,and she was just lapping it up.The man was yelling at his dog,as it was comming back GROWLING at her,thats when she started.I think she was growling at the dog more than the person,but after that the kids came up and patted her and she LOVED it.Dazzle is more of a love dog than an angry dog.Also-I don't want dazzle to be a protection dog,I don't even really entend on Schutzhund,as we just don't have any trainers around.So-really,your just misinterperating the situation (not saying that in a mean way )

The guy had a stick in his hand,running at his dog,who was near dazzle-yelling at it,now...that IS a threatning jeasture

So-really,She was reacting as most dogs would.It's like when a person comes to our house,she does a bit of a bark,a bit of a growl,and then when she realises they're non freatning,she stops and waltzes up to them and rolls over for a pat

 

[charmedwolf]

i walked over to the walpole golf course with dazzle,set her loose on a bunch of rabbits,they had a headstart,she was soon RIGHT on their tails!...then as soon as i wistled for her,she came straight back.Then she went for a group of ducks,they flew into the pond,dazzle jumped in...no hesitations,and is swimming after them....then on our way back,some family had taken their 2 kids out "bug catching" and they had a yorkshire terrier,well dazzle thought that this dog was a rabbit,and was trying to chase and herd it,and she thought that the family were going to harm me,so she stood there,hacles up,teeth beared,snarling and growling at them,when all they did was come over to get their dog,which wasn't near dazzle,because she scared it away.

First, post you say that she wasn't on a leash. Now you are saying she was? She was trying to chase and herd but now you say she wasn't able to because she was on the leash. Then you said all they did was come over to get their dog, but now they were threatening with waving a stick and yelling.

I was not there so obviously I wouldn't know exactly what happened but like running_dog said, I see it how you describe it and it is dangerous. Please clear up everything and maybe I'll change my view on it.

 

[running_dog]

LOL Charmedwolf, I'm sorry, I thought maybe my post was untactful and deleted it

Basically Karleee, we can only interpret what you write and what you write is contradictory...

3 of the points I noticed were:
first post dog wasn't near Dazzle, second post dog was near Dazzle.
first post man wasn't threatening, second post man was threatening.
first post dog was scared away by Dazzle, second post dog was coming at Dazzle growling.

So to get this clear you are glorying in your dog's unjustified/justified display of aggression towards humans who have an attacking/fleeing dog and who are/are not threatening and may/may not have been anywhere near you.

Clear as mud isn't it?

 

[tigerlily46514]

I too, am confused by what happened.
Karlee, as your dog is now 9 mos old, you very well may begin to notice aggression developing, IF IF IF your dog is going to have this issue, "aggression".

this is a very common age for aggression to manifest. It tends to escalate quite a bit in next 3 mos, to the point, it is now an undeniable problem--IF IF IF Dazzle does have this problem. I'd get him evaluated pronto!! THE SOONER you begin rehab, with someone who HAS experience with aggressive dogs,
the better your results could be!!,---that is, IF your dog is beginning to manifest innapropriate aggression. (i'm not sure, i could be wrong)

Smacking your own dog if they do not do what you want,
will NOT help, and may even make aggression worse. Your dog does indeed seem to be insecure, or maybe has some issue, hard to say via online with evershifting reports.

At any rate, this is a formative time for your dog,
and there will come forks in the road of how you choose to manage Dazzle,
IF IF IF IF indeed Dazzle is now beginning to display any issues at 9 mos old.
I'm not sure of this, but, there are a few hints in your writings, evne on other threads, that Dazzle *may*
and i repeat *may* be developing some behavioral issues.

All dog tend to protect their human, ALL of them. Even a chihuahua, will do what he can, if he feels his owner is in real, actual trouble. But, we do NOT want to encourage a dog who is incorrectly perceiving dangers to react inappropriately,
when in fact,
there is no danger at hand. I live with an aggressive dog,
i can promise you,
it's not the easiest type of dog in the world to live with, it's not for everyone. If your dog IS beginning to exhibit aggression,
do get Dazzle to a positive only trainer straight away, as well as to the vet for a physical, just to be sure there are not any health issues. TELL the vet what is going on, if there are indeed, any signs your dog is becoming aggressive.

I take zero "pride" whatsoever,
none
in my dog reacting. Actually, i work to not feel ashamed when i can't control his aggression.

I do not mistakenly think Buddy being aggressive is
any reflection of his "love" for me,
nor of his "loyalty" for me,
nor of his urge to "protect" me. It is a reflection of the neurochemical issues inside his own skull, similar to schizophrenia or autism is in humans, a mental disorder.

Buddy would react to unknown dogs even if a stranger is walking him. Buddy has issues.
Not that Dazzle is like Buddy, i'm just saying, aggressive displays are rarely moments to take pride in. Almost never, unless someone is coming through your window, or beating on you.
Occupying the same beach, does not qualify as a moment to be proud of your dog being aggressive, you are not understanding what Dazzle is really doing....yet.

There is nothing to take pride in, when a dog acts up.
I do take a foolish amount of pride if i am able to help my dog stay calm. OHmidawg, i do, i feel conceited for hours afterwards, and tend to brag right out loud, if i can help keep my gangsta dog calm by unknown dogs, oh, i do brag! Others here can vouch, i tend to take foolish pride in being able to do that. And i can't always do that, but, when i do, it's like winning a prize, to my mind.

I have never hit my dog, ever, and he has gotten better, through positive only re-enforcement. I need my dog to TRUST me, not fear me.

 

[running_dog]

That is to funny that she thought the Yorkshire terrier was a rabbit.

It is not very funny to have a dog that cannot distinguish a dog from a rabbit. I've met too many saddened and distrustful people whose dogs have been killed or injured by a dog that thought the poor brute was a rabbit.

My dog has only once made the mistake and though both dogs were calm and leashed it was a horrifying moment. The other dog was fluffy and as the fluff went up Zac's nose like rabbit fur the switch flicked from "puppy" to "prey". The other owner was never aware of what happened because I removed Zac from the situation before he did anything more than arch his neck in a particular way.

 

[Bosun]

Here, In Canada, there are laws against allowing a dog to chase wildlife. I agree with those laws and cannot condone owners who knowingly allow it.

All the confusion aside, it does sound like you *may* be on your way to trouble with your dog. At 9 months, they are teenagers... and brats. The growling really should not be a common occurrence. Growling is done by dogs for very specific reasons... he seems to be mixed for some reason.

Now, that said, Bosun started growling when he was even younger. At the second happening, I called the breeder. Ridgebacks are new to me. She told me that he, at his young age, had no idea what he was doing... and he was doing it to get my attention. She was 100% right... and it had been working for the booger... same as whining or barking for him at that time.

She also advised me on a couple other senarios... he is 100% love puppy, like yours, but that behaviour is not acceptable. I need to rely on his verbal and body cues to know how to best help him. If he's sending the wrong cue often (calling wolf) I just may miss the one time he needs me to make a decision on his behalf.

Please, don't let the growling go unchecked. It's a tightrope walk, you don't want him to think growling is bad (all y dogs are allowed to growl, appropriately) but it's not a tool he should be using weekly or daily.

 

[tigerlily46514]

good catch, Rdog!
and yeah, it's not funny at all.
My Buddy goes into prey mode for any dog that is small, skinny, with short hair, and skinny legs (chihuahuas, min-pins, etc) as he grew up with nothing but rats around him as he lived inside a cage for years, he lost his mind about rats.
okay, Buddy has never told me that is "why" he goes after skinny dogs in the same way he goes after squirrels and bunnies, but, it is my guess. Buddy's famous "chihuahua" reaction, is very different than his ordinary "unknown dog" reaction....
It can be very frightening to consider if my dog ever killed another dog.

and i think (just my guess) that Dazzle did indeed realize the other creature was a dog....i do. I think (i hope not, but i think) that Dazzle *may* be beginning to display aggression to unknown dogs.

KARLEE, how does Dazzle get on with most UNKNOWN dogs? Or most UNKNOWN people?

also, i'm not liking the growling at ppl at your door, you might need to get some professional help to help Dazzle learn that is not wanted behavior. If Dazzle IS dog-aggressive, she could still spill over to becoming people-aggressive, as well, although a dog-aggressive dog's reactions to humans are much easier to eradicate.
Just like a shy dog's reactions to unknown dogs is usually much easier to manage. It's not their "primary" target.
BUT, if not well managed,
either type of dog-------------
the shy dog, (can aggress towards most unknown humans)
or
the dog-aggressive dog,(aggresses towards most unknown dogs)
CAN
develop BOTH targets, especially if poorly managed,

so get Dazzle over to be evaluated right off. Like tomorrow.

 

[tigerlily46514]

OOOH Bosun brings up a most VIP point,
is
never
ever
ever
"correct"
a growl.
don't do it.

Karlee, if i can only convince you to do one thing,
to help you with Dazzle,
it'd be
"NEVER PUNISH A GROWL"

Instead, remove Dazzle away from that which she is growling about. do not remove the object, nope, but do remove Dazzle--calmly remove Dazzle.

If you DO "correct" a growl, by punishing dog,
this won't teach your dog to be "nice"
it will only make your dog SILENT.


She'll still be jsut as freaked out inside, but silently freaked out.

This makes the dog way more dangerous, there's no warning growl now, it's been trained out of him. This dog is more likely to go straight for a BITE.

These are the ppl who post, "NO idea when Fido is going to go off and bite someone/attack a dog....one minute Fido is fine! Next minute, BAM, Fido has bitten !"

cuz poor Fido was trained to skip that all important warning growl. Unless "corrected" for it, almost all dogs will give a warning growl,
and we do NOT want to "correct" that, by yanking dog, or scolding dog, or hitting dog, or any other punishment.

YOu can still work on helping Dazzle not growl at the door, but, not by ever scolding the growl. I am very grateful, that my dog DOES give a warning growl prior to losing his mind. Helps a lot, helps me notice him, if i am not paying att'n, "Oh, my dog is geting upset!"
It also helps strangers realize,
my dog is about to bite.

so never "punish" a growl, not ever. Still, there are ways to desensitize Dazzle to the sight of strangers at her door, without EVER conveying to Dazzle, "don't ever growl". YOu reward her calmness, after helping her become calm.

 

[tigerlily46514]

If you ever accidentally do teach Dazzle to not growl out loud,
you will regret that,
and it's very very hard to undo. You don't get a lot of chances to get this right, so you want to learn this right away, is never punish a growl.

This may be confusing,
and i have no idea how old you are, Karlee,(?)
but you do want Dazzle to be free to growl, to give her warning when she is beginning to freak out, it's a very handy audible warning to you, and anyone else nearby,
to notice Dazzle is beginning to get upset....

but
you also want to help Karlee lose the need to growl, by helping Dazzle realize, strangers at the door are okay afterall.
Let us know if you want some help learning how to do that. that part is not too hard to do, is even kind of fun.

 

[karleee]

First, post you say that she wasn't on a leash. Now you are saying she was? She was trying to chase and herd but now you say she wasn't able to because she was on the leash. Then you said all they did was come over to get their dog, but now they were threatening with waving a stick and yelling.

I was not there so obviously I wouldn't know exactly what happened but like running_dog said, I see it how you describe it and it is dangerous. Please clear up everything and maybe I'll change my view on it.

Ok-I'll post EVERY detail,start to finish

Ok-here in Australia,rabbits are allowed to be hunted,they are considered PESTS by the government-and are no laws protecting them besides the you ARN'T allowed to snare or use leghold traps (with I can see why!,thats just cruel)

Ok,We were out walking on the golfcourse,after chasing rabbits and ducks-ducks were BEFORE the people were there)and on our way back (unleashed) it was pitch black,and we were nearing the pond.we were about 200m away,and dazzle raised her hackles,and started growling.Then,out came this yourshire terrier,and she tried to chase it,i put her straight back on her lead and scolded her verbally.I apoligised to the owners and they said it was O.K,they should have had there dog under control.Then at this point,dazzle was getting patted by them and their kids,and she was lapping up the attention,She still wasn't quite sure about the dog-but they progressed to sniffing each other with no problems accuring.

Tigerlilly-Dazzle gerally loves pats from people and loves to socialise with dogs-even if she has never met them before.I don't know what was up with her this time-but we had a walk the day after and she met a man and two dogs-and all she wanted was to play

Maybe the fact it was pitch black?,and we didn't really see them until the dog ran out-im not sure,but we havn't had any experiences like this before-and we havn't after now either

I hope I cleared things up for everyone now
Also-I can post a video of dazzle meeting strange dogs and people-on and off lead,and show you her POSITIVE reaction if you like for more clarrification

 

[karleee]

and i have no idea how old you are, Karlee,(?)

I'm 13 this year

But i've been training-BY MY SELF since about 5 (when I got my first dog)

 

[karleee]

and i think (just my guess) that Dazzle did indeed realize the other creature was a dog....i do. I think (i hope not, but i think) that Dazzle *may* be beginning to display aggression to unknown dogs.

KARLEE, how does Dazzle get on with most UNKNOWN dogs? Or most UNKNOWN people?

Tigerlilly-Dazzle gerally loves pats from people and loves to socialise with dogs-even if she has never met them before.I don't know what was up with her this time-but we had a walk the day after and she met a man and two dogs-and all she wanted was to play

 

[running_dog]

The only reason that people are asking your age is because you have posted some ridiculous things. If you want to be accepted as a child then we accept that children make misjudgements, if you want to be accepted as a mature trainer (of 8 years experience with 2? dogs) then you need to post more carefully - with an adult outlook and without creative writing that glorifies dangerous behaviour (whether it really happened or not, as none of your posts agree I'm still none the wiser).

I do think you are amazing to train so well when you are so young and you probably do know a lot

BUT,

the very fact you are toying with protection dog training for Dazzle shows that you don't know quite enough, not just yet, just like I was in my early teens, training the family pet to chew on a padded arm feeling utterly competent to deal with the results without ever comprehending that the dire consequences could actually happen to me.

If you want a challenge why not work the Sue Ailsby training levels, they are really thorough! Is Dazzle up to level 7 yet? What about discdog or dog dancing? YOU could invent so many new tricks that no one has ever trained before. You have plenty of time, take your gorgeous Dazzledog right to the top in some other dog sport, YOU can do that and I know we'll all cheer you on.

 

[karleee]

Really-dazzle hasn't,and won't be trained in protection.I have little thoughts that run through my mind,and then a day later I think "Thats the most dumbest idea you have thought of-and don't even start-like this example"

She already does agility,and I would love to dog a heap of other sports,but the only comps you can go in for other dog sports besides agility,your dog MUST be pure with papers

 

[running_dog]

but the only comps you can go in for other dog sports besides agility,your dog MUST be pure with papers

What a stupid rule. It is probably because they're scared the mixed breed mutts would do better than the purebreds!

Take her to the top in agility if you can... and train for some of the other sports too... sooner or later someone will start running competitions for mutts, if no one else does then maybe YOU will in a few years time - with Dazzle as your demo dog.

 

[karleee]

I hate those rules!
I have a good feeling with dazzle's agility-she is super fast,and barley ever knocks a bar.She is still in training,but I hope to get her to her supreame-I would LOVE to take out a few tiltles

As for this topic,I would LOVE to delete it-but i don't think I can